I have an idea VictorC...

k4c said:

So you believe grace and truth does away with the Law?

Does that mean since we have grace and truth we can now sin? Certainly not!

Does the fact the we have grace and truth allow us to sin so that grace and truth may abound? Certainly not!

You still have not reconciled your belief system with all the verses that discredit your system of belief.

Click to expand...

You haven't discredited anything with this non-answer.
You can either come up with an origin for the law outside of Moses, or honestly concede the error you presented.

John 1:17 contrasts the origin of grace apart from the law, and attributes the origin of the law directly to Moses: "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ".

k4c said:

So you believe grace and truth does away with the Law?

Does that mean since we have grace and truth we can now sin? Certainly not!

Does the fact the we have grace and truth allow us to sin so that grace and truth may abound? Certainly not!

You still have not reconciled your belief system with all the verses that discredit your system of belief.

Click to expand...

You have conceded you have grace and truth. So why is it that you still sin?

AT

k4c said:

The Law was written on stone because of transgression that means they were breaking the Law before it was written on stone which means the Law is part of our nature which means the Law on stone reveals what we should have been doing before God wrote it in stone. We know the Law is part of our nature because the Gentiles, who were not given the Law on stone, do, by nature, things contained in the Law.

Jesus came and magnified that very same Law you reject. Tell me, why do you reject that which is called good, holy and right?

Click to expand...

My, that's a lot of steps to arrive at a conclusion not found anywhere in Scripture!
You can either come up with an origin for the law outside of Moses, or honestly concede the error you presented.

John 1:17 contrasts the origin of grace apart from the law, and attributes the origin of the law directly to Moses: "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ".

k4c said:

Let me give you some examples of sin before Sinai.

Click to expand...

Yes, there was sin before Sinai. Sin existed before the law was added. It also exists since the Seed came.

BFA

k4c said:

GOD is its origin!

Click to expand...

Yes indeed, and God handed the law to Moses. That's the reason the covenant issued from Mount Sinai is commonly called the Mosaic covenant. It didn't exist until God handed it to Moses, as Moses testified in Deuteronomy 5:2-3 showing the ten commandments didn't exist prior to his own generation.

That's the testimony of Scripture, but it isn't what you alleged in earlier posts.

You can either come up with an origin for the law outside of Moses, or honestly concede the error you presented.
The only outlet at this juncture is a concession driven by an inherent desire for personal integrity, and that's what the members of this forum are patiently hoping to see from you.

k4c said:

The Law was written on stone because of transgression that means they were breaking the Law before it was written on stone which means the Law is part of our nature which means the Law on stone reveals what we should have been doing before God wrote it in stone. We know the Law is part of our nature because the Gentiles, who were not given the Law on stone, do, by nature, things contained in the Law. Jesus came and magnified that very same Law you reject. Tell me, why do you reject that which is called good, holy and right?

Click to expand...

Yo have such a limited and wrong view of God, Christs, Law, sin and salvation.

The bible paints a more detail and different view than what you are saying.

You fail to understand with the sin of Adam, all of humanity was thrown in a , missing of the mark, in Gods sight...and, before they had done anything good or bad.

You fail to understand eternal death was the sentence for all of mankind.

You fail to understand from the time of Adams sin all the way up to Genesis chapter 12 where we see the call of Abraham, we see the out working of Adams sin through humanity. All of humanity was forever linked with sinful first Adam.

You fail to understand in calling Abraham to leave his country,God finally decided to put His plain in motion to deal with sin through the call of Abraham. He called Israel through Abraham.

You where correct that the law was added because of transgression, but you failed to understand what law really had to do with it . The bible says:

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Now its up to you k4c... to read the context of Romans chapter 5 to get the context. There you will find a contrast of the first Adam and the last Adam....Christ, and what each did for humanity. Then you will understand why the law was added and what it really had to with it. You see, it was not only because of sin that the law was added. The more important reason was because they would see they where linked to Adam. If they where linked to law, they where linked to Adam. The way and only way to escape the linkage to Adam was through grace of God. Before the giving of Torah, there was sin in the world that where not manifested as sin.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So Israel had no idea of how sinful they truly where. But with the coming of the Torah, Israel understood their condition and how sinful they really where. They saw a Holy God and them selves as a very sinful people through the law. (This led to a whole new set of problems for Israel...namely their boast in it.)

You said the law is part of our nature. That is not true. Yes heathens are linked to Adam through the law but Torah is not part of our nature....sin is. You are wrong to assume the law Paul mentions in Romans 2:14,15 is the Mosaic law. It is not the Mosaic law, and the gentiles in Romans 2:14,15 are Christians and not heathen. They have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Paul develops this Idea in the later parts of the same book. To suggest they are heathens , would not fit in with the context of the bible. The bible suggest no heathen has ever had the law (of the Spirit of life) written in their hearts.

k4c said:

Because there is a law working within my flesh.

Click to expand...

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Well then my brother you have a problem and you don't even know it.

You see...we all sin...but we are not all under condemnation because the law is not at work in us to bring us into captivity to the law of sin and death. We are no longer linked with the first Adam, but with the Last Adam...Messiah! We have been delivered from Torah...an now walk after the Spirit....I suspect you have too, but you want to go back to observing Torah.

Oh and by the way there are two different laws being mentioned between verse 22 and 23...can you name them?

AT

k4c said:

Do you guys confess sin?

Click to expand...

Sure...I can't speak for others, but I confess sin....Why??? Because the Spirit still convicts of sin...and I don't hold to OSAS.

AT

k4c said:

I went step by step so you could grasp it so don't try to use it against me.

We all know that sin was sin before Sinai so the fact that God points out sin through the Ten Commandments does not nullify the Ten Commandment in the new covenant.

Click to expand...

A existing before B does not imply that B exists after we were redeemed from B. In fact, you seemed to forget about A, and that it existed without B.
A = sin
B = law

I can grasp what you wrote. I don't think you can. You left A untended and didn't support B existing past its demise.

k4c said:

God gave them so they're given.

Click to expand...

That same God also delivered us from it in the new covenant based on His adoption with His Spirit, and the new covenant cannot coexist with the first covenant, which was the ten commandments: "He takes away the first that He may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9).

k4c said:

Now the big question is, how the Law on stone effects people who are coming to God? The Law points out sin, which in turn points us to Jesus so that He can cleans us of that sin through the grace of God.

Click to expand...

Galatians 3
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Once the law accomplished the purpose ordained for it, it terminates and loses jurisdiction over God's redeemed.

k4c said:

Once the sin has been pointed out and Jesus cleanes you of it you are no longer under the Law because the Law was meant to point out sin and bring condemnation but once Jesus cleanses of our sin that does not give us the right to continue to sin.

Click to expand...

Why do you sin?
Why does God give us His promise to forget our sin in the present tense? "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
It is obvious that sin continues: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).

If you can't be reconciled to God in light of your sin (transgression to the law doesn't exist anymore), you aren't His purchased possession.

k4c said:

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

I know you guys have a hard time with this concept because of the half truths you've been taught but keep seeking God and He will open your eyes.

Click to expand...

We have the whole truth of God; it is those in the first covenant who have a veil while reading Moses. If your transgressions under the first covenant have not been redeemed (Hebrews 9:15), sin is imputed to you and you remain guilty before God (Romans 3:19). You have a creative writing style that is a window to the natural rebellion of the author inside.

k4c said:

GOD is its origin!

Click to expand...

Yes indeed, and God handed the law to Moses. That's the reason the covenant issued from Mount Sinai is commonly called the Mosaic covenant. It didn't exist until God handed it to Moses, as Moses testified in Deuteronomy 5:2-3 showing the ten commandments didn't exist prior to his own generation.

That's the testimony of Scripture, but it isn't what you alleged in earlier posts.

You can either come up with an origin for the law outside of Moses, or honestly concede the error you presented.
The only outlet at this juncture is a concession driven by an inherent desire for personal integrity, and that's what the members of this forum are patiently hoping to see from you.

k4c said:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


Romans 3:20 ...for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Click to expand...

And you point ???

AT

k4c said:

Do you guys confess sin?

Click to expand...

Why, yes! And we receive forgiveness from God. The law doesn't have that capacity given to it, as it knows reconciliation for transgressions only by blood atonement.

But according to you, it isn't "okay" to sin, so what good does confession do for you? You need to provide your own blood for atonement, right?