I have a question and I’m confused

actionsub said:

Given that mix, I'd be looking for a Missouri Synod Lutheran church. (Despite the name, the Synod has churches all over the US.) There are some that are even dipping their toes in contemporary worship music.

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Controversially. I am hoping the LCMS and LCC will formally ban such contemporary worship music, and I believe this sentiment is shared by at least a few members of the actual denomination.

The Liturgist said:

Controversially. I am hoping the LCMS and LCC will formally ban such contemporary worship music, and I believe this sentiment is shared by at least a few members of the actual denomination.

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While I share your sentiments about music (my idea of "new music" is music written after 1800 ), it seems to me that a denominational ban would have to have a theological reason behind it, and I can't see a theological justification for banning music written in a particular style or written after a certain year. How would a denominational ban like this work?

PloverWing said:

While I share your sentiments about music (my idea of "new music" is music written after 1800 ), it seems to me that a denominational ban would have to have a theological reason behind it, and I can't see a theological justification for banning music written in a particular style or written after a certain year. How would a denominational ban like this work?

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I think a ban on praise and worship can be theologically justified, and if you want to see theological justification for why it ought to be banned, the most compelling rationale was actually provided by the excellent encyclical on Church Music that prioritized Gregorian Chant and early polyphony of Palestrina, Byrd et cetera by Pope St. Pius X, who I am comfortable venerating despite being Orthodox, variously known as Tra Le Sollecitudini or as inter pastoralis officii sollicitudines , published in 1903, which really applies even more to Praise and Worship music and the use of “Christian Rock” music in Church than it does to some of the overly bombastic 19th century settings of the mass which St. Pius X correctly objected to.

You can find this encyclical here: Tra Le Sollecitudini Instruction on Sacred Music

Likewise, the commentary of the Orthodox on the subject is compelling.

Of course, I reckon that the writings of Martin Luther on Church Music as well as his popularization of the Chorale as the Lutheran hymn format par excellence, and the other types of music that he encouraged, such as the continued use of the various settings of the Latin Mass and the various motets and cantatas, which were later greatly enriched by Lutheran composers such as Bach and Buxtehude, ought to be sufficient within Lutheranism to define a normative style for Lutheran music.

But since it is apparently necessary to go beyond what Luther wrote on the subject, the writings of recent Orthodox theologians who have succesfully kept such music out of most Orthodox jurisdicitions, and in the case of the Coptic Orthodox church, successfully ejected it following an actual conspiracy by some charismatic churches to take over Coptic parishes in extrao-diocesan areas, which lacked rigorous oversight since no one other than the Pope of Alexandria had any authority over them, and thus as Pope Shenouda became increasingly elderly, this effort began in earnest in the 2000s, but was stopped in its tracks by Pope Tawadros II, who solved the problem by creating dioceses in the former extra-diocesan areas and appointing the most fiercely Orthodox bishops to deal with the problems therein, for example, His Grace Bishop Abanoub who was appointed to the DIocese of Muqattam in Egypt, which along with St. Mark’s in Washington, D.C. was among the parishes that was most under Charismatic influence.

This website, now archived, which was posted concurrently with the initative of Pope Tawadros II, contains a treasure trove of articles written with Coptic Orthodoxy in mind, but which I regard as, in principle, largely applicable to Lutheran Orthodoxy, or at least, conceptually similar so that the ideas in them could be adapted for Lutheran Orthodoxy (the Lutherans are not as severe as the Copts in asceticism, so an adjustment in that direction can be intellectually performed): Return to Orthodoxy - A Pan-Oriental Orthodox Effort

So between the writings of the Copts, and other Orthodox, and the writings of Pope St. Pius X, and the writings of Martin Luther himself, as well as the exemplary music of Lutheran churches during the 17th century and early 18th century, an era in which Lutheran Orthodoxy was predominant among the Lutheran churches of Europe before the unwelcome advent of Pietism and Rationalism in the mid 18th century, if the leaders of the LCMS and LCC decide to take aim at praise and worship music, and I sincerely pray that they will, they have all the theological justification they would need. It would be trivial to create a Lutheran theological synthesis of the aforementioned resources and to articulate it in that manner.

Likewise one could do the same thing in the case of Methodism and Anglicanism.

I would note that fortunately Anglo-Catholics at least have for the most part shunned praise and worship music, although there are a few contemporary settings in Anglican music that I find unpleasant, although they are traditional, but they suffer from being ugly, for example, the very popular setting of the Alleluia sung between the Epistle and Gospel in both the Episcopal Church and in Anglo Catholic churches like All Saints Margaret Street and St. Bartholomew the Great (fortunately the ultra-Anglo Catholic St. Magnus the Martyr, which has the most beautiful liturgy of any parish church in London, a liturgy surpassed in quality only by what one finds at the Royal Peculiars of Westminster Abbey and the Temple Church, won’t touch it).

@The Liturgist @PloverWing

"Rejoice with those who rejoice"

Again, it's not all about you, and your preferences, etc.

I would rejoice with any of you no matter what music was playing, etc.

Because it's not all about me, etc.

But you might be way too sophisticated or stoic for that kind of thing, etc.

I guess some people just want to be and stay divided.

Even proposing or resorting to "bans" to do so, etc.

God Bless.

@The Liturgist @PloverWing

But, I know, I know, you just want to sit in a church and be holy, so I guess I understand.

God Bless.

Neogaia777 said:

@The Liturgist @PloverWing

But, I know, I know, you just want to sit in a church and be holy, so I guess I understand.

God Bless.

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Firstly, according to St. Silouan the Athonite, if anyone thinks he is holy, this is an extremely dangerous delusion, on a par with thinking we are beyond hope of God’s salvation. Rather I regard myself as the worst of sinners, and put all my hope on the mercy of God.

Secondly, aesthetic taste and preferences when it comes to the style of music literally has nothing to do with it. If you had read the articles I had linked to, you would understand the very strong theological rationale for the rejection of praise and worship music and Christian Rock music, specifically in terms of how it is emotionally manipulative, and derived from secular forms of music which are intended to appeal to the sinful passions.

I myself find it impossible to concentrate on prayer when such music is praying. I evaluate church music based on how easy it is to pray to. During my year in the Episcopal Church, which @PloverWing is familiar with, what he might not know is that while my frined Fr. Dean was one of the last conservatives in the Diocese of Los Angeles, his director of music was, in my opinion, heterodox, if not outright heretical, in that he believed that the Eucharist was, in his words “ritual magic,” which is an idea that I find shockingly offensive (the idea that a sacrament ordained by Christ our True God could be called magic, and thus associated with sorcery, the tricks and demonic practices of deviants throughout the ages), and he was also very much an enthusiast of praise and worship music, and tried to blend it with more traditional music from the 1980 Hymnal (a very good hymnal, by the way), usually with disastrous results, so because of this I made a point of always attending the 8 AM said service.

For I can pray in silence, such as at a Roman Catholic low mass, or at a said service in the Anglican tradition, or when prayerful traditional music is used, but I cannot pray when people are jamming on an electric guitar and the drums et cetera.

Indeed further to the point @Neogaia777 that this is not an issue of aesthetics - there are several genres of music that I personally enjoy that I could not pray to. For example, I love jazz music, especially swing music of the 1930s and 40s, of the sort performed by Benny Goodman, Glenn MIller, Artie Shaw and Duke Ellington, but there is no way I could pray to it (some can, and John Coltrane is venerated, perhaps justifiably, as a saint by some African Americans). Likewise I could not pray to much of the Romantic music of the 19th century, and some masses composed by Romantic composers are a problem for me. Even Schubert, whose first two masses and his Deutsche Messe are very easy for me to pray to, I think got a bit carried away with masses 3 through 6, although I could still tolerate these. Likewise, I very much enjoy Barbershop Quartet and Ragtime music, and I also could not pray to that. I enjoy the musical scores of several Hollywood films, such as Lawrence of Arabia, Khartoum, and the original Star Wars and Star Trek films, but I could not pray to those. For that matter I am an enthusiastic collector of military music, particularly military music of the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and needless to say, it would be very hard to pray to that. Although I would say with all of the above I can still continue the Jesus Prayer.

However, with pop music, country music and some forms of electronic dance music, and also praise and worship music and Christian Rock, I personally find this music is so stimulating of the passions that even the Jesus Prayer, which is the essential prayer for those who desire to pray without ceasing, (the prayer is “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on Me, a Sinner, or a permutation thereof, which can be as simple as “Lord have mercy”), this can interfere with the Jesus Prayer, and this is why I believe it should be avoided, and not used in the liturgy of any church.