I am evil?

You're not evil. You're kinda like me.

When they get on your case, show them how Biblically unjustified their positions are.

wtopneuma said:

Much of which you advised could be true but you went off on the deep end with the horns bit because neither satan nor other demons have horns though goats horns are used by satanists as one of their symbols. Before His fall in heaven, Satan was the arch-angel of light, according to scripture. The horns of a devil are fiction. The priests of Israel would figuretively placed the sins of the nation on the back of a goat and send it into the wilderness.

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Hi WTOP,

Thank you for your discernment about me going off the deep end. Sorry mate, before I say anything I make sure what I say is correct. Now I don't intend to get into any debate on this. You either accept it or you don't. That's between you and our Lord Jesus Christ. I am His Watchman and Messenger, not a debater of what is right and what is wrong, and split hairs.

But, I can assure you that those long pointed handles on the guitars of today, are satanic horns. The same as you see those people putting their hand up with two fingers pointing upward and the other fingers folded down in the shape of Satan's horn. I've even seen Christians make that satanic sign.

Yep, we think these days, that it's all harmless, and the "elect" don't see the deception.

Love in Christ

Loner said:

He went threw dark times and sufferd threw them and but strong prayed when things got ruff all the way to the end. Life was not easy for him eahter.


God said use your gifts did he not? My Imagination I belive is my gift(I hate saying that because its sound like full of my self when I am really not) and I am using to promote good like C.S. Lewis did. Ware dose it say in the bible cant write about fantsy or draw the way I do?

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Hi Loner,

I'm not saying what you can do and what you can't do. All I am trying to do is to put some commonsense in your thinking.

I someone says to you that it's wrong. Then have you discussed it with them to find out why they are saying that.

I said before that may be these people are concerned for you, may be they know more that what you think they do.

We all make decisions and choices, but at least consider something that I've said, because I can assure you that I SPEAK THE TRUTH!

I'm no fairy floss Christian, I've been around the traps too long.

So please go and talk to those people who condemn what you do, and find out for sure why they think that way. Now if you don't get a satisfactory answer, then take it to your pastor.

Love in Christ

Loner said:

I try that but you wont belive how hard it is convices some one.....

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Even if they're not convinced, if you can make a good case for yourself, a decent believer will go away with more respect for you and a slightly more open mind. Those that won't will eat their words sooner or later, even at the last judgement.

"Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity." - 1 Timothy 4:12

wtopneuma said:

The question here is not whether you are a Christian or not. The question is whether you are following God's plan for your life as a Christian. Study the following scripture as written by Paul from the Contemporary English Version, pray, then obey God. Compare with other Bible translations.

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Nonsense.

The only question is, are you a Christian, and it is the heart which answers, not the ticklist and series of hoops you suggest.

wtopneuma said:

Much of which you advised could be true but you went off on the deep end with the horns bit

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The horns come from Celtic mythology. They originally belonged to the God Cermumnos, or some such spelling, but he was not a devil figure. They were later tacked onto imagery of the devil, but were not originally part of Jewish or Christian imagery.

Elijah2 said:

But, I can assure you that those long pointed handles on the guitars of today, are satanic horns.

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To you, maybe. Not to me. To the pure, all things are pure, remember? The guitar may or may not be phallic, but it is certainly not satanic. A guitar is morally neutral; it is only people who sin.

The same as you see those people putting their hand up with two fingers pointing upward and the other fingers folded down in the shape of Satan's horn. I've even seen Christians make that satanic sign.

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I fear you are a little lacking in historical knowledge. The two fingered sign is well attested as deriving from the wars around the Battle of Agincourt, and Henry V. The French were rather wary of English prowess with the bow and arrow, and would cut the fingers off any English soldier they caught, in order to prevent them from being useful in war.

So, when the English attacked at Agincourt, they made a two fingered gesture to the French, to show them that they had their fingers, and could therefore use their weapons to deadly effect. And they did.

The two fingered gesture is, therefore, a very English v French gesture originally, and has nothing to do with satan.

There used to be a gesture, in common use up until at least Tudor times, of making the sign of two horns at the side of one's head. But again it was not a sign of satan. It was a sign that you made when in the presence of a man who you knew to have been cuckolded.

It is all very well making up these spurious claims of satanic this and that, but you do know that you are meant to focus on God, and what are the signs of his presence, rather than anyone else, don't you? Nobody can serve two masters, and your attention seems rather wrapt by the wrong one at present.

Whatever is good, whatever is holy, whatever is pure, think on these things.

twistedsketch said:

When they get on your case, show them how Biblically unjustified their positions are.

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I can see why you would say this, but actually, this is sometimes the worst thing to do.

If you say, 'this is what I believe', you are unassailable. If you like, you are in a fortress with no point of entry whatever.

If you say, this is what I believe, and here are the three verses which tell me this, you are giving your opponent the means by which they can beat down your position. In effect, you are saying, this fortress is unassailable because it has a drawbridge, a high wall and a moat. They are going immediately to look at the drawbridge and attack it, attack the high wall and start to swim the moat.

This puts you into a defensive position, and even though you do not in the end change your mind, you feel as if you have been assaulted. Which is true. This will drain emotional energy and leave you feeling battered and bruised, while the other side probably enjoy every minute.

Best not argue. Just listen to the other side, say something maddeningly non committal such as 'That is a very interesting way of looking at it', or 'do you really think so?' but decline to engage in debate.

And if you feel really under attack, you can get Christians off your back by telling them that Christ is your judge, and that you will accept no other. If they do not listen to that, then walk away; they are not listening, so there is no point you talking.

Loner said:

Other Christian have acused me of promonting the ocult because of the Music I listen to, having goths freinds(who are Christian to) and for my art and Writing. They said I could not listent to Rock and Metal (just like every one to know I will NOT listien to any Santanic bands,The ones I like are not envoled with the ocult and some are even Christian them selves) They said my freinds were unhealthy and involed with the ocult eather though they never met them, they just thought that because I told them they were goths. Then acussed me of getting envoled with the ocult because I read and write Fantasy/Sci-Fi and I make Gothic art (both my writing and my art are not Anti-Christian, My wirting was actully promting it) and My art gets me in trobal with some Christians, my drawling have bin conpaired to Tim Burtin and I do not make things that that are anti Christian. Today I reach a Boiling point when I was on onther Christian web site that tared me up for likeing fantasy and having goth freinds.


How should I deal with other Christians who keep saying I am not a real Christian over things like this?

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Your friends shouldn't be false accusing you. If they are assuming its just the style your listening to they are wrong. Its the lyrics of the song that make it godly or not.

It is ashame that "style" is falsely judged. There are some people are come to Christ because there is heavy metal christian music. Your friends need to know that God isn't limited to a certain style.

Catherineanne said:

To you, maybe. Not to me. To the pure, all things are pure, remember? The guitar may or may not be phallic, but it is certainly not satanic. A guitar is morally neutral; it is only people who sin.



I fear you are a little lacking in historical knowledge. The two fingered sign is well attested as deriving from the wars around the Battle of Agincourt, and Henry V. The French were rather wary of English prowess with the bow and arrow, and would cut the fingers off any English soldier they caught, in order to prevent them from being useful in war.

So, when the English attacked at Agincourt, they made a two fingered gesture to the French, to show them that they had their fingers, and could therefore use their weapons to deadly effect. And they did.

The two fingered gesture is, therefore, a very English v French gesture originally, and has nothing to do with satan.

There used to be a gesture, in common use up until at least Tudor times, of making the sign of two horns at the side of one's head. But again it was not a sign of satan. It was a sign that you made when in the presence of a man who you knew to have been cuckolded.

It is all very well making up these spurious claims of satanic this and that, but you do know that you are meant to focus on God, and what are the signs of his presence, rather than anyone else, don't you? Nobody can serve two masters, and your attention seems rather wrapt by the wrong one at present.

Whatever is good, whatever is holy, whatever is pure, think on these things.

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Thanks for informing me of the evolution of the two prongs on a guitar and the extended fingers.

He says:

"Woe tho those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Woe to thos who are wise in their own eyes, and purdent in their own sight!

Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink.

Who justify the wicked fora bribe, and take away justice from the righteousman!" (Isa. 5:20-23).

Yes, once upon a time the word "wicked" meant "wicked", and now it means "good".

Yes, once upon a time the word "Gay" meant happy and joyful, and now it means "homosexual"

Now this subject is going down the gurgler. There basically no right or wrong.

But, if commonsense can't come into the discussion, and take some heed from mature and experinced people, then you can talk till you are black in the face.

In the OT it says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge" (Hosea 4:6). We know that any failure of mature Chrisitans, leaders, prophets, watchmen, messengers who fail to make Christians AWARE of THINGS then there is a possibility of causing others to FALL, because of their lack of spiritual knowledge, knowing the difference between RIGHT and WRONG.

BE AWARE, BEWARE and don't BE UNAWARE.

Loner said:

Other Christian have acused me of promonting the ocult because of the Music I listen to, having goths freinds(who are Christian to) and for my art and Writing. They said I could not listent to Rock and Metal (just like every one to know I will NOT listien to any Santanic bands,The ones I like are not envoled with the ocult and some are even Christian them selves) They said my freinds were unhealthy and involed with the ocult eather though they never met them, they just thought that because I told them they were goths. Then acussed me of getting envoled with the ocult because I read and write Fantasy/Sci-Fi and I make Gothic art (both my writing and my art are not Anti-Christian, My wirting was actully promting it) and My art gets me in trobal with some Christians, my drawling have bin conpaired to Tim Burtin and I do not make things that that are anti Christian. Today I reach a Boiling point when I was on onther Christian web site that tared me up for likeing fantasy and having goth freinds.

How should I deal with other Christians who keep saying I am not a real Christian over things like this?

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WE ARE ALL EVIL
that is the first thing you should think about and understand in your situation.
We all stray from the truth, and from Gods will ,every chance we get, it is in our nature, and by that I mean it is in most cases our very first intention. That is one thing you should ask yourself, what is the intention, and purpose for your, appearance, Who are you serving by appearing as you do, does this benefit the salvation of others, or does it benefit you, and your desires? When I first began to believe, I pompously paraded around in whatever I saw fit. With no regards to anything or anyone else. However the more I read of the scripture, the more I realized that most of the things we do, or are called to do are not nessesarily for our own benefit. But for the edification, and in many cases the very salvation of others. You I assume believe that what you wear does not matter. But would you put a swastika armband on, and proudly show it off to all you meet?, Would you don a white robe, and pointed hood, and then preach of the salvation, and forgiveness, of Jesus?
Matt 7:
[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Now obviously their are false prophets, that have "sheeps clothing" and have all apearances of good and "godly" men, but yet they are not. Does that mean we should go and dress as criminals?
It is one thing for someone to be poor, and financially unable to purchase "presentable" attire, but much of the "gothic" movement is catered to as exclusive, and trendy. vs being all you can afford. That should stand out in itself, that its popular.
Since when was what God told us to do popular with men?
I saw you brought up so called "christian" rock.
and this quote perfectly exemplifys something you need to notice

GregoryTurner said:

The old music and lifestyle was very demonic. The music and lifestyle now is Light. Can we not choose to listen to what we like if it has the message of Jesus. Bands like Zao and Extol, you can't make out what they say sometimes until you read the lyric sheet. And once you read what message they are putting out, man, I didn't know these guys followed Jesus!?!?!

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The origins of the movements themselves were decidedly anti Christ. and much of their fruit bears the appearance of their predecessors. while trying to put a "christian" spin on it.
But I ask you if you do a behavior that is against what we are told to do , do you somehow save the lost in that behavior, or do you in fact more often than not end up entrenched in the very same behaviors yourself?
ever channel surfed with the volume muted? If you have try it while watching country music, MTV, and the so called christian "rock" videos. And tell me if you could tell them apart? What is their purpose? If it is to sell records, then obviously you want to do whats popular, and sells, but if your goal is to save souls would you not want to distance yourself from the others?
We should be like oil to the world, and not mix , Jesus said we should be the Salt to the world, What happens when you pour salt into a wound?
The Gothic movement in itself is in a way amusing, they want to be the outsiders to the world, yet, if one really wanted to be an outsider, they would be a Biblical Christian, because YOU WILL BE HATED. Jesus told us so, Sometimes we have to give out harsh truth, rather than trying to soothesay, and appease someones ego. people pleasing is like overlooking an addict. Sooner or later they will end up dead, if just left to their own .

I also noticed you mentioned your writing and art, Look into the inspirations, of your favorite autors, and artist, If they are the same as the ones I personally used to love, then their fruit should be obvious. I started out very secular, and I wanted to write/draw the next star wars, and during my research I ended up giving it all up. As I could not reconcile it with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I don't dress how I wan't to , I don't do what I want to, I do what is pleasing to Christ, and in the best interest to the salvation of my brothers and sisters. (And when I don't I sin.)
Think about why you listen to the music you do.
Who does it please?
Who is it meant for, and what purpose is it?
I too used to draw demons, But I have stopped, made up , imagined or not. they are stumbling blocks to many.
And the last thing I want to do is inadvertently cause someone else to stumble away from Christ.
We should always think of others ahead of ourselves.
Which is something sorely lacking in the "modern" church.
We are more interested in our own entertainment, than the welfare of others.

Look Don't think I am trying to Judge you, As I have been in your situation, But I have learned better, And realize the things I used to love are garbage, in comparison to Christ. I was proud, when I should have been humble.
God finally brought me to the point of asking myself how I could justify my life to Christ himself.
And once I started comparing myself to the light of the Scripture, thats when I realized how contaminated I was with all things of the world. If all scripture is inspired by God, what does that make everything else that doesnt line up with scripture?

I can see why you would say this, but actually, this is sometimes the worst thing to do.

If you say, 'this is what I believe', you are unassailable. If you like, you are in a fortress with no point of entry whatever.

If you say, this is what I believe, and here are the three verses which tell me this, you are giving your opponent the means by which they can beat down your position. In effect, you are saying, this fortress is unassailable because it has a drawbridge, a high wall and a moat. They are going immediately to look at the drawbridge and attack it, attack the high wall and start to swim the moat.

This puts you into a defensive position, and even though you do not in the end change your mind, you feel as if you have been assaulted. Which is true. This will drain emotional energy and leave you feeling battered and bruised, while the other side probably enjoy every minute.

Best not argue. Just listen to the other side, say something maddeningly non committal such as 'That is a very interesting way of looking at it', or 'do you really think so?' but decline to engage in debate.

And if you feel really under attack, you can get Christians off your back by telling them that Christ is your judge, and that you will accept no other. If they do not listen to that, then walk away; they are not listening, so there is no point you talking.

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I am sorry, but this is a very bad approach. First of all, it is important to note that none of us are right on everything. We must be willing to admit it when we are wrong. How can we discover that we are wrong without actualy discussing things with fellow believers? If we never sit down and discuss other views then we are greatly hampered in our search for the truth.

Second of all, Jesus himself does states that we should discuss such issues with felow believers.

Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
(Matthew 18:15-17)


According to Jesus, is you feel that a brother has sinned against you (such as calling you evil) then you should go and talk about it with them. There is no talk off simply nodding your head and ignoring them.

Elijah2 said:

Yes, once upon a time the word "Gay" meant happy and joyful, and now it means "homosexual"

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Sorry, but you are a shade out of date. Once upon a time gay denoted same sex orientation, but now it is used with gay abandon in our playgrounds and elsewhere to denote 'prat', 'fool' or somesuch, with no connotations of sexual orientation included.

Language changes.

As for the word 'homosexual', I notice that it is only used by those who wish to be perjorative, for the simple reason that it was constructed as such. It is a pseudomedical word, of 19th Century provenance, indicating an abberation from the norm. This concept that has been largely rejected in the light of more recent, scientifically attested, knowledge, apart from in those shady corners of reaction, where light seldom penetrates through the overgrowth of condemnation, and where prejudice flourishes.

BoranJarami said:

I am sorry, but this is a very bad approach.

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Not a diplomat, then?

According to Jesus, is you feel that a brother has sinned against you (such as calling you evil) then you should go and talk about it with them. There is no talk off simply nodding your head and ignoring them.

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This is a different case. This is a brother, who is innocent, assailed by a series of well meaning but mistaken people, who feel called to put him right, in what can only be called a presumptuous and arrogant manner.

In such a case, there is every point in nodding your head and ignoring them. It is the Christ-like thing to do. The non Christ-like thing to do, would be use a vulgarity to encourage them to go forth and multiply.