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Frank Robert

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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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doubtingmerle

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What?

I had asserted two things:
A) The ultimate cause of the universe might have a mind.
B) The ultimate cause of the universe might not have a mind.
You responded with this:

1. A or C.
2. Not C.
3. Therefore A.
4. Therefore not B.​

Sorry, not valid. Please try again.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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Full stop.

Rewind.

Let's back up and talk about how we got here. You ignored the OP and out of the blue asked me an unrelated question, "Where did nature come from?" I thought you were asking about the cause of the cause of the Big Bang, so I referred you to my website where I address that question: Is There a God? - The Mind Set Free . Your response indicated you weren't really interested in the cause of nature. Rather, you stated that "all reality comes from and depends on him, including math and logic." So you seemed to be shifting to a discussion of where math and logic come from.

Then you went way out in the woods, trying to argue that mathematics and logic can only come from God. Your argument is completely losing. You can see for yourself by clicking on https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/20966 . Basic principles of logic and mathematics simply exist in all possible worlds, and do not need a God to make it so.

A simple example is the law of noncontradiction. If A is true, then it is not possible that not A is true. Its a simple logic statement, and it is true in all possible worlds, regardless of whether a God exists. So no, God did not invent that law of logic.

Likewise, with mathematical quantities, certain laws of mathematical quantities must exist in any possible world. In all possible worlds 2 + 2 <> 53567, regardless of whether a God exists in that world.

I made several attempts to explain that to you, but each time you respond with twice as many bad arguments as the arguments I refuted. So, I can see it would be a waste of my time to continue. All that would prove is that constantly doubling a finite quantity eventually make a big quantity (a fact that is true in all possible worlds, by the way).

In your last response, you complain endlessly that I am discussing mathematics and logic. Darn right! Who hijacked this thread anyway? You did. Who insisted that we had to talk about the origin of mathematics and logic? You did. Fine. I obliged you. Now you complain endlessly that I am discussing the origin of mathematics and logic. LOL! Are you serious?
 
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Bradskii

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Even if I were a Christian, I'd still be asking this question: How do I know when someone is acting on the word of God?
 
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SelfSim

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Likewise, with mathematical quantities, certain laws of mathematical quantities must exist in any possible world.
.. except belief based 'worlds'. Where, by 'belief' there, I mean:

'A belief is any notion held as being true out of preference, that does not follow from objective tests, and is not beholden to the rules of logic'.

(Just sayin' ...)
 
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Mark Quayle

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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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.. except belief based 'worlds'. Where, by 'belief' there, I mean:

'A belief is any notion held as being true out of preference, that does not follow from objective tests, and is not beholden to the rules of logic'.

(Just sayin' ...)
How would that work, even in a fairy tale? Describe an imaginary world where 2 angels holding 2 beers each is exactly the same thing as two angels holding a total of 53567 beers.
 
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SelfSim

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How would that work, even in a fairy tale? Describe an imaginary world where 2 angels holding 2 beers each is exactly the same thing as two angels holding a total of 53567 beers.
The describer there is demonstrably doing that from our world and the description is therefore, a belief. Because a belief departs from the rules of logic, the description from within that world, is already illogical.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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The describer there is demonstrably doing that from our world and the description is therefore, a belief. Because a belief departs from the rules of logic, the description from within that world, is already illogical.
How would a describer that is in a world where 2 beers plus 2 beers equals 53,567 beers describe how that fact can exist in his world? I contend that this is logically impossible.
 
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Astrid

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SelfSim

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How would a describer that is in a world where 2 beers plus 2 beers equals 53,567 beers describe how that fact can exist in his world? I contend that this is logically impossible.
Facts in his world may well be illogical from our viewpoint.
However, from our world's viewpoint, the describer is observably doing their describing from our world. That description passes the test of what a belief is, therefore illogic would be consistent in his worldview. This doesn't mean that logic in his world is inconsistent with it either .. because the context was belief in the first place.

Logic is demonstrably something our minds do .. there's no evidence its exists independently from one. (Ie: 2+2=4 is demonstrably our description .. and not independent from it being one).
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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Facts in his world may well be illogical from our viewpoint.
Absolutely. A different world could have totally different physics and a totally different history, and hence totally different facts.

But a different world can not possibly exist where a quantity of 53567 beers is exactly the same thing as a quantity of 4 beers.
Logic is demonstrably something our minds do .. there's no evidence its exists independently from one. (Ie: 2+2=4 is demonstrably our description .. and not independent from it being one).
The law of noncontradition applies everywhere, even if there is no mind around and nobody ever observes it.

In any galaxy in our universe, 2 plus 2 equals 4, regardless if there is anybody that can observe that galaxy.

2 plus 2 equaled 4 long before people figured out how to express that equation.

In any possible world, two plus two equals four.

Two plus two equals four.
 
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SelfSim

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Hmm .. and how do you know all this(?)
(Obviously a rhetorical question, because it would be you knowing all that and doing the observing in that universe .. which would, of course, then be a contradiction to the claim).
 
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Mark Quayle

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You say:
A) First Cause might have a mind.
B) first cause might not have a mind.

I go with A), and I claim, First Cause has a mind.
Here's one reason why:

a. The only two 'possible' forms for First Cause are: Possessing of a mind, and mere mechanical fact;
b. 'mechanical fact' implies being governed by principles from outside itself;
c. First Cause cannot be governed by principles from outside itself.

Therefore, First Cause has a mind.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Even if I were a Christian, I'd still be asking this question: How do I know when someone is acting on the word of God?
I don't know what you mean —"acting on the word of God"?
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Posit b is an unsupported assertion, not an implication.
 
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