huh????

actually the Bible says both. sometimes in these cases its best to look at what it says in the Word instead of trusting in what man has said to you. its best that you look at what all of the Bible says about this. you cant take bits and pieces of Paul's letters, then ignore the other things he wrote about the same subject... c'mon now. and thats what a lot of preachers/teachers do. but we have to keep a balance when it comes to the Word of God especially in the area of salvation. so people won't be confused.

look at these scriptures (keeping in mind that Paul wrote both of these letters - so they have the same author):

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Romans 6:15-16
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

then he goes on to say:
Romans 6:19
I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members (another word for body parts) as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

so here in these 2 letters Paul lets us know that yes salvation is a free gift given to us by the grace of God and that we must believe in order to be saved. but then he also says, that just because we're no longer under the law, does that mean that we do away with the law? just because we're under grace, does that mean that we continue in sin? then he responds to his own question with a resounding no! i suggest that you read the book of Romans, specifically the 1st 6 chapters.

the Lord has saved us by grace, but He has also called us to a life of holiness. holiness is not unattainable. if it were, then the Lord would not require it of us. think about it: God would never require something of us, that we were not able to attain. and yes it is a requirement. the Bible says without holiness no man will see the Lord (Heb. 12:14). and Jesus said out of His own mouth that only the pure in heart shall see God (also referring to living a life of holiness). but just like it was His grace that saved us, it will also be His same grace that leads us into a life of holiness. i think what a lot of "grace preachers" (if thats what you like to call them) fail to recognize, its the whole definition of the word "grace."

grace is not just defined as God's mercy on mankind's sinfulness. but grace is also defined as the power of the Holy Spirit in us to overcome sin. so not only does His grace save us from sin, but it also enables us to overcome the sin that is in our lives. when you look at it from that perspective, then it helps you to understand why Paul wrote what seems to be contradictory statements. but when you understand the full meaning of the word "grace" then it helps you to get a better picture.

and yes Jesus paid the price in full and salvation is not by works. but Jesus' death was more than an Atonement for our sins. He also gave us His Spirit to help us overcome sin. so what His Word requires, His grace enables us to obtain.

as far as repentance: Jesus said Himself if we do not repent we will perish (Luke 13:3). and in Acts it says:
Acts 3:19
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

maybe what you're struggling with is again the definition. repentance means to turn from sin and turn toward God, and again what His Word requires, His grace enables us to do. this is 1 of the reasons why His Spirit now lives in us - to enable us to obey His Word. God knew that we could not obey Him on our own. thats why He has given us HIs precious Holy Spirit to show us how. the power of the Holy Spirit is what enables us to repent from our sins. so the more we trust in Him to assist us, the more He assists us. we have to have faith in Him. we have to believe that He can free us from these things, instead of trying to free ourselves from these things. it is impossible for man by himself, but with God all things are possible.

you asked about practicing sin and knowing whether or not you're in the kingdom... i was just studying in the 4th chapter of Romans. i believe that you know you are saved when you have His Spirit living inside you and you are in right standing with God. how do you know when you are in right standing with God? in Romans 4:18-22, it's talking about the faith of Abraham:

Romans 4:18-22 (Amp)
[For Abraham, human reason for] hope being gone, hoped in faith that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been promised, So [numberless] shall your descedents be. He did not weaken in faith... No unbelief or distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong and was empowered by faith as he gave praise and glory to God... That is why his faith was credited to him as righteousness (right standing with God).

so it is our faith in God that puts us in right standing with God. as long as we have faith in Him to empower us by His grace (the power of His Holy Spirit to overcome sin), and trust in His power, then that faith puts us in right standing along with our obedience and submission to Him. we cannot say we truly have faith in God, if we are not truly submitted to Him. our submission to Him proves our faith and trust in Him. thats why Paul said I put my trust in whom I have committed my life. when he committed his life to God, at the same time he became submitted to God, and becasue he was submitted to God he also trusted in God or had faith in God. and that faith puts us in right standing with God. the Bible says that salvation is by faith and not by works, but it also says that faith without works is dead. so there has to be balance.

we cannot turn his grace into lawlessness and still say we have faith in Him, because if we had faith then we would trust Him to help us overcome our sin instead abusing His grace by continuing in sin.

does that mean that we're not saved because we still have "junk"? no, it means that we need to trust God more to help us overcome the garbage that remains. the Bible says that the Word of God is alive and full of power (Heb. 4:12). so it is full of power to deliver us from sin and keep us from sin as long as we trust in God to do so through the power of His Word. when people ask me questions about this subject, i always tell them that the same Bible that saved us is the same Bible that'll free us from sin. if it has the power to save you from sin, then it also has the power to keep you from sin. we have been called OUT of darkness and into His marvelous light.

as far as what John said: look at what he said a few verses before that:

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness (sin), we lie and do not practice the truth.

so not only do we lie if we say we have no sin, but we also lie if say we have fellowship (or relationship) with God, yet walk in darkness. then he goes on to say that Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. so it is the power that is in Christ that enables us to overcome sin. the same power that rose Jesus from the dead, now lives in us by His Spirit. and that same power that rose Him from the dead can also free us from sin.

in my personal life, the Lord has freed me from sin that i thought i would never be free from. and now He is still freeing me from things in my life. so my point is that it is a process. and its not an overnight process. we should all be a work in progress. the key words being "in progress." as long as we stay yielded to God and have faith in God, then He will complete the work that He has begun in us just like He's promised in His Word (Phil. 1:6). so just stay yielded, believe Him and trust HIm. its HIs truth (His Word) that sets us free (John 8:32).

i want to also add concerning right standing that the Holy Spirit lives inside of us, right? and Jesus said that the Holy Spirit is a Spirit of Conviction and He will convict us of sin. so it is the job of the Holy Spirit to let us know when we have messed up so that we can go to God in repentance. this is why it is so vital that we trust in Him to lead us into truth. the truth is what sets us free and the Holy Spirit leads us into that liberating truth. that's why the Bible says where the Spirit of teh Lord is there is also liberty. but He can only help us overcome sin if we are submitted to His leading and guiding us, and if we are obedient to His voice. He lets us know when we are in right standing with God, and when we are not, He is the One who helps us find our way back to God. but He cannot lead us into truth, if we are disobedient and refuse to follow.

God bless you!

bigJerm said:

hard to understand how you are really saved sometimes...some preachers preach grace...that you are save by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ paying the full penaly .....then you have the guys that preach repentance as if the quality of your repentance is going to save you...." if youre still practicing sin your not going to be in the kingdom" well how do you know what practicing sin is?....since John says if we say we have no sin we are lying.........seems like the logic to this stuff just goes in circles

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Your question is well-written.

There are different types of ministries. The "fire and brimstone" minister teaches repentance and deliverance. Once you understand and receive both, then it's time to move on to a more grace-based ministry (or minister).

You have to understand that annointed ministers are blessed with powerful ministries techniques, but you will find that many are stronger preachers in certain areas. For example, a "fire and brimstone" minister is usually effective in bringing people to repentance, and he/she doesn't deviate too far from this type of ministry. So to remain under this type of ministry is pointless if you have 1) repented, and 2) know exactly what that means.

Once we are delivered we need a ministry that teaches us how to apply God's word to our daily lives. This is what helps us grow out of our sinful nature.

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you..."

You are definitely on the right track.

God bless you,

The Guide

All of what I am about to say, may have already been said. but, here goes:

First, we are saved by Grace. But we also need to repent of our sins, daily. We all sin, even after we have confessed our faith in Christ. God's Grace, through Christ's death forgives us of our sins.

Second, when we repent of our sins, that means we are turning away from that sin & turning to the Lord. If we continue in that sin, I would then ask, did we really, truly repent with all out heart??

When you say what John said, what verse are you reading. It would better help to explain.

Again, when we repent of our sin & turn everything over to the God, through Christ Jesus, by God's grace - He forgives us. We must live a life of repentance, because we all still fall short of the glory of God.

bigJerm said:

so the days when you do a good job of repenting you are forgiven...how would you ever know if youve repented enough to be forgiven?..........

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Simple: you haven't! It's simple, it's just ... a little scary to admit it, isn't it. We all know we fall totally short.

If God were setting up a new bar for us to leap over, we'd still be sunk. If God were thinking, "Well, ok, they couldn't do the Law so how about ... how about just confessing what they haven't done? We'll set up the bar here. Now, it's way lower, surely they can jump that bar."

Well, no. We can't. You've got that exactly, BigJerm. We're still sunk.

But wait -- what if we made an error? We're sunk only if that's what God intended.

What if He didn't intend it that way?

Y'see, we have to get out of thinking what we do is "satisfying requirements," or "getting this for doing that." Paul says it quite clearly, "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. But to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness" Rom 4:4-5 The rules have changed. We're not working for salvation. Thank God, too. Because we'd all be dead.

However, that doesn't mean there's no actions resulting from faith. We just talked about taking action in order to receive salvation; that's a deadly kind of thing. But instead we take actions because we have received God's grace. We confess, repent, and try to live the new life God has given us because we believe He has given these things to us. We don't confess, repent, and live the new life in order to earn it. That'd be like dressing up for the prom when no one's invited you. What a forlorn hope that is. But surely you'd still dress for the prom! Because Someone's sworn that He will carry you there -- even if it kills Him (and even though it did).

it means exactly what it says. to practice means to practice.

the Bible says if you walk in the Spirit, then you won't pursue the lusts of the flesh. so if there's sin in your life that you're having trouble breaking from then you need to spend some time alone with God in prayer and yield to His Spirit - whatever He tells you to do. maybe you should try fasting. when i had trouble breaking free from certain sins, i found out that when i would fast the Holy Spirit through His grace would give me strenth to overcome whatever i was struggling with. and the end result was it being broken off of my life.

1st though, you have to really wanna be free from whatever you're struggling with. if you're not serious with God, then He wont be serious with you. we have to show God that we are serious about whatever we are coming to Him about. fasting is a good way to do that, because we're coming to Him with a sacrifice.

so you have to wanna be free. a slave cant ever get free if he loves his shackles. if he's content with his condition, then he'll never go after what's better.

then you have to believe that you can be liberated from the power of sin. in fact, the Bible says that you already have been set free from the power of sin. so once you're in Christ, sin no longer has power over you. but you have to believe that. and you have to believe His Word. then you have to walk according to what you believe. when you present these things to God, then He does the rest as long as you stay yielded to Him.

remember the Word says that it is the truth that will make you free. then it says that the Holy Spirit will lead you into that truth. in order for someone to lead you somewhere, you have to be willing to follow them.

so you cant be satisfied with where you are. remember to whom much is given, much is also required. so since you have been given this knowledge that you can be free and you can get beyond where you are, then the Lord will be expecting you to push further to that place.

bigJerm said:

that awesome stuff for sure since im a rotten sinner who needs mercy and grace...i just get hung up on these lists paul makes of people practicing sin that wont inherit the kingdom.......eph 5:5, 1 cor 6;9 and galatians 5........what does it mean to "practice" sin?.....seems kind of vague since he lists things like envy that were all prone to..........

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I like what jazzypooh's sayin'. Practicing sin essentially is making it "normal" to do these things, where you slip into justifying those things. And they can't be justified.

We always love to bring up the hypocrisy of politicians. When politicians say they want to make a sin "rare", we hear cynically that they don't want to impede a sin at all. But not so with God. God intends to make sins less and less in your life. "Christ came to put away sin". And to make one sin or another out to be "normal" -- or ultimately justifiable -- is a deadly way of allowing sin to rule in your life.

So when we sin, we must then agree with God that it is sin, and it would ultimately condemn and kill us. Were it not for God's grace.

It is extremely humbling to be in Someone Else's Hands about the thing that matters most to you. But it's absolutely critical to put yourself in His Hands and not to squirm away as if these sins don't matter. They matter. But if you don't squirm away from Him, He can do something about it. (Of course He already has.)

bigJerm said:

so the days when you do a good job of repenting you are forgiven...how would you ever know if youve repented enough to be forgiven?..........

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Repentance is a gift from God Himself.

Your sins were forgiven at the cross...ALL of them. That's how you know you're forgiven. YOU don't have to DO anything to earn that forgiveness in any way. By God's grace, He gives you the benefits of the cross to you through the use of means, whether it's by His Word, or baptism or the Lords Supper.

God is the one who saves 100%. We can't add to it. We can only fall away and reject Him.

bigJerm said:

that awesome stuff for sure since im a rotten sinner who needs mercy and grace...i just get hung up on these lists paul makes of people practicing sin that wont inherit the kingdom.......eph 5:5, 1 cor 6;9 and galatians 5........what does it mean to "practice" sin?.....seems kind of vague since he lists things like envy that were all prone to..........

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i want to add also, that the Bible says where sin abounds, grace much more abounds (Romans 5:20). grace meaning the power of the Holy Spirit in us to overcome that sin. that's why the Bible says that with every temptation, God provides a means of escape. that means of escape is within us, because 1/3 of the Godhead lives in us. the power of the Holy Spirit, which dwells within us is our means of escape. His Spirit lives in us to assist us during times of temptation. that's why the Bible says He's a very present help in the time of trouble, because His presence is in us to help when we're facing trouble. so the more you find yourself struggling with sin, the more you can call on the grace of God to strenthen you to overcome that sin as you trust in the Holy Spirit more and more. so no matter what the problem is, His grace is sufficient enough for you. that's why the Bible calls Him the God of all grace.

2 Peter 1:2 says:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you in [the full, personal, precise, and correct] knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

so as we come into the knowledge of God and of Christ, God's grace is multiplied to us. that knowledge will come through prayer and His Word. so pray without ceasing and get in HIs Word more especially concerning the areas where you are struggling right now. the book of Romans pretty much answers your original question, so that'll be a good read for you. so come into His knowledge by studying HIs Word, and as you study the Word, it will empower you to overcome everything that you struggle with and everything that'll ever come your way. His grace will be multiplied to you. remember it is His truth (His Word) that sets you free (John 8:32), and it is that same truth that sanctifies you or cleanses you from sin (John 17:17).

God bless you

You aren't alone in your struggles! The apostle Paul spoke of such struggles himself! It's because we're bound to sin in our human bodies, yet, the Holy Spirit is transforming us. It's why we should NOT look to ourselves for any proof of salvation, but look completely to our triune God and the cross where salvation was won for us and know that we are forgiven.

bigJerm said:

i dunno...im pretty frustrated with the bible....faith alone faith and works justified by something or other.....by grace....or by repentance.....do i repent?..or repentance is a gift ....so if im struggling with sin is it because God hasnt had enough grace on me...or am i just not believing enufff.....or do o like sin too much ......who knows if i even love God.....sure sounds like a lie when i say it.........i dont know how anybody finds "truth" or "assurance" in all of this circular reasoning and paradoxes......................

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you need to pray about these things. God is not the author of confusion. ask His Spirit to lead you. and this is not circular reasoning or paradoxes. His Word is TRUTH - absolute truth. you just have to believe that. if you dont believe that, then you can never receive understanding on any of these questions you are asking. and stop speaking the lies of the enemy. just pray and ask God to reveal His Word to you, and help you understand it better. this is all we can do for you.

bigJerm said:

this is all you can do for me huh.......sounds like your version of truth is blind faith

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Hey BJ I don't think that faith is blind it is based on the Word of God. It is based in whether or not you TRUST Him and His Word.

Do you Believe that what God says is true? Do you believe it is for you? Those are the things you must first decide.

Forget about for now your sin issues, your weaknesses. You must first believe that God IS.

Heb 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Faith is the catalyst into our life with God and Faith is the language, so to speak, that we communicate with Him.

What He wants from us is to "believe" Him, that what He says is Truth. He understands that our world we live in is very often contrary to what He says, but that is where He wants us to learn to Trust Him, in spite of what we see, feel, hear contrary to it. That is why He has given us His Word, the Bible. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

A born again "believer" walks in this for always. From the first day he gives his life to Christ to the last day of his life here on the Earth.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

In Hebrews 11:6 above we see that God WANTS us to first believe that He is, He exists, but the second part of that is that He WANTS us to believe that He is a REWARDER of those who diligently seek Him.

He says, Seek me and you shall find Me when you seek for me with ALL your heart. He's there for you and everyone who will call upon His name.

There's much more I could say but the first decision is up to you. Are you willing to BELIEVE Him. That's all it takes. He really wants you to because He has so much for you.

bigJerm said:

hard to understand how you are really saved sometimes...some preachers preach grace...that you are save by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ paying the full penaly .....then you have the guys that preach repentance as if the quality of your repentance is going to save you...." if youre still practicing sin your not going to be in the kingdom" well how do you know what practicing sin is?....since John says if we say we have no sin we are lying.........seems like the logic to this stuff just goes in circles

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Repentence is just a decision you make to change your mind. The Greek word for REPENT follows:

G3340 μετανοέω metanoeō met-an-o-eh'-o
Strongs definition
From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.

G3340 μετανοέω metanoeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3326 and G3539
Citing in TDNT: 4:975, 636

That's all it is. I do agree there is too much emphasis on Repentence and too much preaching on sin to the Body of Christ. It takes maturity and an understanding of the Word of God to know who you are in Christ to keep you from getting frustrated, discouraged and depressed.

You can be victorious but it won't by hearing over and over again that you have to repent, repent, repent. You will get the victory when you hear who you are in Christ. You will become transformed, not by trying to curb your appetites, or beat yourself up but you will be transformed by the renewing of you mind with the Word of God. Once again believing what God says, (about you), and applying it by faith and not works.

God's Word is a powerful force that can litterally change us when we can't change ourselves.

I know there are preachers out there who keep pounding and hounding on sin but I suggest you get as far away from them as possible. Find a man of God or church that teaches you who you are in Christ and get yourself built up rather than torn down. That is the key to true change and deliverence from sin.

Here is one of my favorite scriptures:

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass (or mirror) the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I hope this helps because I know the turmoil that one can experience before they learn this truth. I have truly been there.