How would you prove the Universe is old?

Mike Elphick · Nov 24, 2009

Ursie said:
Christianity means to follow Christ, not to pick and choose what he said that you'll believe, though that is what many people who believe themselves to be Christians today do.

How do you judge who's the 'better' Christian amongst millions who genuinely believe in Christ and his teachings and who profess and practice the Christian Faith?

Of course Christians 'pick and choose' what and how they believe, otherwise there'd not be the huge number of different Christian denominations. The argument that if a person doesn't believe in this bit (like the Genesis creation account) then question how that person can believe the rest of the Bible doesn't wash. For example, you don't hear about people being encouraged to perform the filthy sacrificial acts specified in Leviticus, nor do you follow this instruction from Deuteronomy:-

Deuteronomy 17:1-7 (NIV)
Do not sacrifice to the LORD your God an ox or a sheep that has any defect or flaw in it, for that would be detestable to him.

If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.

You don't believe in this (at least I hope you don't)! Christians have to rationalise their faith with many things, not just with science.

rjw · Nov 24, 2009

Mike Elphick said:
How do you judge who's the 'better' Christian amongst millions who genuinely believe in Christ and his teachings and who profess and practice the Christian Faith?

Of course Christians 'pick and choose' what and how they believe, otherwise there'd not be the huge number of different Christian denominations. The argument that if a person doesn't believe in this bit (like the Genesis creation account) then question how that person can believe the rest of the Bible doesn't wash. For example, you don't hear about people being encouraged to perform the filthy sacrificial acts specified in Leviticus, nor do you follow this instruction from Deuteronomy:-

You don't believe in this (at least I hope you don't)! Christians have to rationalise their faith with many things, not just with science.

And of course there are these verses:-

Job 37:4,6 &10, Job 38:11-12, Ps 107:25, Ps 107:29-30, Nah 1:3-4, and Zech 10:1

which reveal how ordinary weather phenomena have a supernatural rather than a natural origin.

If YECs wish to be taken seriously wrt Gen 1, and their claim that it must be read in a straightforward manner, then it is hard to see how they can seriously rationalize away the intent of all these verses.

Regards, Roland

rjw · Nov 24, 2009

AV1611VET said:
He headed it off at the pass.

God has His own way of saying things in the Bible, and the Bible is written in such a way as to be coherent to all ages.

Job's mention of lightning speaking is an excellent example.

To Job, it is lightning speaking; but to us, it's electronic communications.

So the TEs are correct after all.

Gen1s mention of creation is an excellent example also.

To "Moses", it is God's creation ex nihilo; but to us, it's God's creation by evolution?

Or do you now wish, AV, to jam on your brakes, do a 180 degree about face, and insist that only you can undertake ancient to modern Biblical interpretation?

Regards, Roland

Cabal · Nov 24, 2009

Ursie said:
I'm afraid the creationist would have to turn the same thing back on the evolutionist. Evolutionist lie every day. They must, for if they do not, they will find that there is a God and they most strongly do NOT want to submit to them.

*ahem*

*points to faith icon*

Not the only one either

When was the last time you met a truly humble evolutionist. Every one I've ever had a discussion with has in the end resorted to calling the creationist an uneducated moron. Why, because he is so frustrated that the creationist will not bow to his 'logic' and pay homage to all he stands for.

Generalisation.

ETA: Nevermind, I see laconic has been handling things admirably. What he said.

Cabal · Nov 24, 2009

AV1611VET said:
He headed it off at the pass.

God has His own way of saying things in the Bible, and the Bible is written in such a way as to be coherent to all ages.

Job's mention of lightning speaking is an excellent example.

To Job, it is lightning speaking; but to us, it's electronic communications.

Really? Who was his ISP and who laid down the cabling?

AV1611VET · Nov 24, 2009

rjw said:
So the TEs are correct after all.

Not even close.

rjw said:
To "Moses", it is God's creation ex nihilo; but to us, it's God's creation by evolution?

Nope --- the details are all wrong.

Especially the order of Creation.

If Genesis 1 is evolution, then our alphabet owes us an apology.

rjw said:
Or do you now wish, AV, to jam on your brakes, do a 180 degree about face, and insist that only you can undertake ancient to modern Biblical interpretation?

No --- I'll let you insist "only I" for awhile --- then I'll pwn you by quoting [the late] Henry M. Morris.

That's where I got it.

Your attitude is the source of your mistakes.

AV1611VET · Nov 24, 2009

Cabal said:
*ahem*

*points to faith icon*

A true seeker would seek --- not take sides.

GoSeminoles! · Nov 24, 2009

Ursie said:
Evolutionist lie every day. They must, for if they do not, they will find that there is a God and they most strongly do NOT want to submit to them.

Except for all the evolutionists who believe in God. Google the clergy letter project, Ken Miller, or the Vatican's stance on evolution.

Cabal · Nov 24, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Not even close.Nope --- the details are all wrong.

Especially the order of Creation.

If Genesis 1 is evolution, then our alphabet owes us an apology.No --- I'll let you insist "only I" for awhile --- then I'll pwn you by quoting [the late] Henry M. Morris.

That's where I got it.

Your attitude is the source of your mistakes.

I love how you feel you can shoehorn science into your literal readings of the Bible wherever it suits and yet IN NO WAY CAN EVOLUTION BE INVOLVED.

Gotta love it.

Cabal · Nov 24, 2009

AV1611VET said:
A true seeker would seek --- not take sides.

Well then maybe creationists should come up with some good arguments? I'm seeking, I'm not suspending logic. Creationism is still as stupid an idea before I changed my icon as it is after - that has nothing to do with me.

And besides, I changed my icon semi-ironically - it says "Christian-Seeker", not Christ-Seeker, and frankly I would love to find a bunch of Christians who weren't as sanctimonious as creationists are, because that's something sorely lacking in my life right now.

GoSeminoles! · Nov 24, 2009

Ursie said:
If creation isn't true, then neither is anything else in the Scriptures, or at least the teachers therein are not fully trustworthy. Christianity means to follow Christ, not to pick and choose what he said that you'll believe, though that is what many people who believe themselves to be Christians today do.

Jesus said all one must do to be saved is to accept him as lord and savior. There's nothing in that condition which says you must also accept a literal interpretation of Genesis.

hangback · Nov 24, 2009

GoSeminoles! said:
Except for all the evolutionists who believe in God. Google the clergy letter project, Ken Miller, or the Vatican's stance on evolution.

la,la,la,la she not listening, la,la,la. it's all lies, it's all lies, go away, go away I don't want to hear your lies, not listening.
Why does every one keep calling her names and throwing abuse? I wonder?? beats me because everything she writes makes perfect sense, well it would to a ???

AV1611VET · Nov 24, 2009

Cabal said:
I love how you feel you can shoehorn science into your literal readings of the Bible wherever it suits and yet IN NO WAY CAN EVOLUTION BE INVOLVED.

Gotta love it.

Cabal, if you set your attitude aside for a moment, and take a real look at my posts, you'll see that it's not evolution, per se, that I discredit --- it is science.

Since evolution runs on science, and since God did not rely on science*, but on omnipotence, I am against evolution.

Read my caption: it says SCIENCE can take a hike, not EVOLUTION.

Evolution is just one aspect of science.

* Which didn't even exist at the time.

Cabal · Nov 24, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Cabal, if you set your attitude aside for a moment, and take a real look at my posts, you'll see that it's not evolution, per se, that I discredit --- it is science.

Since evolution runs on science, and since God did not rely on science*, but on omnipotence, I am against evolution.

Read my caption: it says SCIENCE can take a hike, not EVOLUTION.

Evolution is just one aspect of science.

* Which didn't even exist at the time.

Whatever.

You single out evolution by shoehorning it into the words of Solomon and Paul out of context.

And yet you claim that retroactively noticing science in the Bible - Big Bang, Internet, etc - somehow validates it.

You can't have it both ways with the attitude you have here.

AV1611VET · Nov 24, 2009

Cabal said:
And besides, I changed my icon semi-ironically - it says "Christian-Seeker", not Christ-Seeker, and frankly I would love to find a bunch of Christians who weren't as sanctimonious as creationists are, because that's something sorely lacking in my life right now.

Then why aren't you conversing with: Emmy, sister in Christ?

(And to be honest, I don't know if you are or not.)

Cabal · Nov 24, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Then why aren't you conversing with: Emmy, sister in Christ?

(And to be honest, I don't know if you are or not.)

What? Who are you talking about?

AV1611VET · Nov 24, 2009

Cabal said:
What? Who are you talking about?

Ya --- that's what I thought.

Cabal · Nov 24, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Ya --- that's what I thought.

Seriously, cut it out.

Who or what is Emmy?

Forgive me for not understanding AV code.

AV1611VET · Nov 24, 2009

Cabal said:
Seriously, cut it out.

Who or what is Emmy?

Forgive me for not understanding AV code.

7

Cabal · Nov 24, 2009

AV1611VET said:
7

Right...so the fact I haven't heard of one CF user out of bajillions and the fact that I've never debated her on this issue or anything else somehow is a point against what I just said?

Wow.

Way to blow off someone's concerns there, AV.

I notice she has .5% your post count total, AV. People on this board are more likely to have heard of you, and frankly that's a concept I find depressing.

How would you prove the Universe is old?

Not so new...

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