How was Paul saved and when ?

dan p · Aug 6, 2010

Hi to all , and there is ONLY one Gospel , how was Paul saved , by the preaching of Jesus and the 12 or by Grace ?

#1 , When did Paul receive the Holy Spirit ?

#2, In verse 6 ?

#3 , Maybe in verse 17 ?

#4 , And know one calls Jesus LORD , EXCEPT by the Holy Spirit !

what say you ?

anthony55 · Aug 7, 2010

Paul was saved by Grace, by being part of the election of grace, and He was converted on the damascus road, however, He as all all the elect are, are saved first and foremost by the Eternal Decree of God 2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

dan p · Aug 7, 2010

anthony55 said:
Paul was saved by Grace, by being part of the election of grace, and He was converted on the damascus road, however, He as all all the elect are, are saved first and foremost by the Eternal Decree of God 2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hi anthony55 , and this is the way that I see it .

#1 , Paul is the first one in the Body of Christ , as 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 says , that PAUL was PROTOS /FIRST and NOT Chief , which is a secondary word used when talking about rank or dignity .

#2 , Paul was the first one saved by Grace as Acts 9:6 reveals , because " no man can say that Jesus is the LORD , BUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT , and I believe that this time PAUL is indweelth by the Holy Spirit .

#3 , Acts 9:17 , " filled with the Holy Spirit " is a bad Translation , because the word " THE " is not in the Greek Text .

#4 , Verse 17 , then is translated , " be filled with Holy Spirit " so, then what Paul is filled with is the " POWER " of the Holy Spirit to perform what his commission that was given Paul in Acts 9:15 .

By , the way , the Greek article " THE " is also missing in the Original Greek in John 20:22 , Receive ye Holy Spirit ."

What Gospel was preached to PAUL ?

Was it Law or Grace ??

anthony55 · Aug 7, 2010

#1 , Paul is the first one in the Body of Christ

Wrong, all who were chosen in Christ before the foundation, were in Christ then !

The First Believers, which are Adam and Eve, they were in the body of Christ.

Apollos1 · Aug 7, 2010

Paul was saved when he "baptized himself". Paul was not saved on "the road" and he was not saved by receiving the HS. Man is saved by God's grace through faith - not by the "direct" operation of the HS - salvation has never has never come through this means.

The marginal reading from Acts 22:16 is "....arise and be baptized (cause yourself to be baptized)... and wash away your sins...". It is not hard to understand that statement unless some type of bias prevents you from reading it for what it says.

Take note that Acts 9:6 says that Paul was to go into the city AND...
"...it shall be told thee what thou must do."

Paul was saved in the same way all other Christians were/are... water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. This water baptism is the means selected by God through which man by faith appropriates the salvation that God offers by His grace.

Paul then preached the one and only Gospel that God ever gave to man... the glad tidings of salvation through Jesus Christ. God before the foundation of the world chose that all who would be saved would be saved "in Christ". This was God's plan. See Ephesians 1:4

anthony55 · Aug 7, 2010

Water baptism saved Paul

Click to expand...

This is false doctrine, Jesus Christ saved paul.

Apollos1 · Aug 7, 2010

Hey anthony -

Your reply was a bit simplistic.

If you answer my post please answer within the entire context of the point.

To help you out with what I explaining - Paul was saved at the POINT he was baptized in water. This salvation being made possible by the blood of Jesus Christ.

It remains that water baptism is the MEANS selected by God through which man by faith appropriates the salvation offered by God's grace. The salvation being offered today to faithful men is no exception.

The blessings of God, with little exception, have always been appropriated by man's obedience to the MEANS God has selected.

anthony55 · Aug 7, 2010

Jesus saves everybody...

Click to expand...

He saves all His Sheep.

Terral · Aug 8, 2010

Hi Dan:

dan p said:
Hi to all , and there is ONLY one Gospel , how was Paul saved , by the preaching of Jesus and the 12 or by Grace?

The Apostle Paul was saved by obeying the "Gospel of the Kingdom" in Acts 9, which includes repenting of sins, confessing sins, water baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 9:18) 'and' laying of hands for the Holy Spirit. Remember that at Paul's Conversion the 'only' gospel in town was the "Gospel of the Kingdom" (#1). Paul would receive 'our gospel' (#2) for today through a 'revelation of Jesus Christ' (Gal. 1:11-12), but that process took place after Acts 9. The 'church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria being built up' (Acts 9:31) is Peter's Prophetic Kingdom 'Bride' (Church #1), as our mystery church (#2) was still hidden like Paul's Gospel, as part of "God's Hidden Wisdom" (1Cor. 2:7) yet to be revealed.

dan p said:
#1 , When did Paul receive the Holy Spirit ?

#2, In verse 6 ?

#3 , Maybe in verse 17 ?

Verse 6 of what book and chapter??? Are we talking about Acts 9?? You cannot give Paul the filling of the Holy Spirit before Acts 9:17, because that is where Ananias departs and enters the house and declares to Paul,

"... Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be (AC)filled with the Holy Spirit." Acts 9:17.

Ananias' statement makes no sense if Paul has already been filled with the Holy Spirit prior to Acts 9:17. The 'laying of hands' lingo tells you that Paul is obeying the Gospel of the Kingdom, as his "Word of the Cross" gospel message was still hidden "IN" God for revealing through the Holy Spirit later in Paul's experience. Many people fail to realize that Bible principals like Paul, Barnabas and Timothy had dual citizenship in Peter's Kingdom Bride 'and' our Mystery Body of Christ, just like Elijah (Acts 3:22-23) will be a Christian obeying our Gospel 'and' the first disciple in the coming Kingdom of God on earth. This is why Paul had to circumcise Timothy (Acts 16:3), because he would be 'preaching the kingdom' (Acts 20:25) to Jews, just like Paul and Barnabas ...

Elijah will preach the "Gospel of the Kingdom" to Israel 'only' to begin the 1000 Year Day of the Lord, even though his sins were forgiven by obeying our gospel through the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Once the Rapture (1Thes. 4:16-17) takes place, then our mystery Body of Christ will be in heaven with the Lord 'and' Elijah will remain on the earth for gathering the 'late rains' (James 5:7) Prophetic Kingdom Bride, just like Peter, John and James from 2000 years ago.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

anthony55 · Aug 8, 2010

terel:

The Apostle Paul was saved by obeying the "Gospel of the Kingdom

False, paul was saved by grace. 1 tim 1:

12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Terral · Aug 9, 2010

Hi Anthony:

anthony55 said:
terel: False, paul was saved by grace. 1 tim 1:

Everyone saved via the Gospel of the Kingdom 'and' Paul's Word of the Cross gospel messages is saved by grace (see Acts 15:11)! We can agree that Paul received forgiveness of sins by obedience of faith, but he would come to understand that 'after' his conversion in Acts 9. The ONLY gospel in town AT THAT TIME was the 'Gospel of the Kingdom' and Scripture clearly offers details that include the 'doctrinal precepts' for THAT good news message in Acts 9!!!

"So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after (AA)laying his hands on him (see Acts 8:16-17, 19:6) said, "(AB)Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be (AC)filled with the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:38, 1Peter 3:21)." And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized (see Mark 1:4-5, Acts 8:12-15); and he took food and was strengthened." Acts 9:17-19.

The 'laying of hands' is associated with 'Kingdom Doctrine' for Kingdom Disciples and especially for receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17, 19:6), when offering the "Gospel of the Kingdom" (Gospel #1). We KNOW for a fact that Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit 'by hearing' (Romans 10:17 and Eph. 1:13-14), because he heard the voice of the Lord in Acts 9:4, but still needed water baptism to receive the Holy Spirit 'after' Acts 9:17.

Paul was originally 'saved' (had sins forgiven) by obeying the "Gospel of the Kingdom," which was the ONLY gospel in town at the time of his conversion!!! Yes, Paul would later have the 'revelation' (Gal. 1:11-12) that he was saved by God's grace through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, but he has NO WAY of knowing that back in Acts 9. Yes. Paul is the first (protos = mistranslated 'foremost') member of Christ's Body (Church #2) to be baptized into Christ for becoming an active participant in His death, burial and resurrection, BUT he still had no way of knowing that back in Acts 9.

I might be inclined to agree with your assertion, but we have 'doctrinal precepts' teaching the 'Gospel of the Kingdom' plainly apparent in Acts 9 saying that Paul was obedient to THAT gospel message 'first' ...

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

A New Dawn · Aug 9, 2010

Apollos1 said:
Hey anthony -

Your reply was a bit simplistic.

If you answer my post please answer within the entire context of the point.

To help you out with what I explaining - Paul was saved at the POINT he was baptized in water. This salvation being made possible by the blood of Jesus Christ.

It remains that water baptism is the MEANS selected by God through which man by faith appropriates the salvation offered by God's grace. The salvation being offered today to faithful men is no exception.

The blessings of God, with little exception, have always been appropriated by man's obedience to the MEANS God has selected.

I'm a bit confused. Is this a suggestion as to how you'd like people to respond to your question, or is this what you believe? And if it is what you believe, why ask the question if you don't want to entertain answers? So, are you, rather, looking for a debate?

If it is the latter, then faith is certainly not bestowed in baptism. Baptism is the response to God's previous indwelling. It is a work that one does in response to the leadings of the spirit. Baptism follows regeneration and faith.

dan p · Aug 9, 2010

anthony55 said:
Wrong, all who were chosen in Christ before the foundation, were in Christ then !

The First Believers, which are Adam and Eve, they were in the body of Christ.

Hi , anthony55 , and Eph 1:4 and 2 Tim 1:9 , really prove that we were elected before the OVERTHROW of Genesis 1:1 and 2 .

And this before any covenants were given and WHY there are no Covenants with the Body of Christ .

That means your quote , that Adam and Eve were in the Body is WRONG !!

Apollos1 · Aug 16, 2010

New Dawn said - If it is the latter, then faith is certainly not bestowed in baptism.
Faith comes by hearing the word God- Romans 10:17.

New Dawn said - Baptism is the response to God's previous indwelling. It is a work that one does in response to the leadings of the spirit. Baptism follows regeneration and faith. .
I don't know of any NT scriptures that teach any of this.

Water baptism is a NT commandment that is for the remission of sins - Acts 2:38, 22:16. God is the one that chose the means and chose what the means is for.

notreligus · Aug 17, 2010

dan p said:
Hi anthony55 , and this is the way that I see it .

#1 , Paul is the first one in the Body of Christ , as 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 says , that PAUL was PROTOS /FIRST and NOT Chief , which is a secondary word used when talking about rank or dignity .

#2 , Paul was the first one saved by Grace as Acts 9:6 reveals , because " no man can say that Jesus is the LORD , BUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT , and I believe that this time PAUL is indweelth by the Holy Spirit .

#3 , Acts 9:17 , " filled with the Holy Spirit " is a bad Translation , because the word " THE " is not in the Greek Text .

#4 , Verse 17 , then is translated , " be filled with Holy Spirit " so, then what Paul is filled with is the " POWER " of the Holy Spirit to perform what his commission that was given Paul in Acts 9:15 .

By , the way , the Greek article " THE " is also missing in the Original Greek in John 20:22 , Receive ye Holy Spirit ."

What Gospel was preached to PAUL ?

Was it Law or Grace ??

Mid-Acts, Hyper Dispensationalism.....

No. Your definition of the Body of Christ does not match Paul's own definition and he was the first to use the term. The Body of Christ is the Israelite Remnant AND the Gentiles who have believed in Christ's finished work on the cross. The Remnant already existed. God has always had a remnant.

The Church and the Body are one in the same and as Christ said would happen, the Church had a visitation by the Holy Spirit and they were endued with power by the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit there is no Church. Without Paul there would still be a Church. Read Acts Chapter 15. Peter knew, before Paul did, that the Gospel was to be taken to the Gentiles. Paul was not Moses to the Gentiles. Christ is head of the Church, not Paul. Your teaching is bad.

A New Dawn · Aug 17, 2010

Apollos1 said:
New Dawn said - If it is the latter, then faith is certainly not bestowed in baptism.
Faith comes by hearing the word God- Romans 10:17.

Like I said, faith is not bestowed in baptism.

New Dawn said - Baptism is the response to God's previous indwelling. It is a work that one does in response to the leadings of the spirit. Baptism follows regeneration and faith. .
I don't know of any NT scriptures that teach any of this.

Water baptism is a NT commandment that is for the remission of sins - Acts 2:38, 22:16. God is the one that chose the means and chose what the means is for.

Baptism for the remission of sins (John's baptism) was a pre-sacrifice baptism. It was a Jewish tradition following the Jewish belief in the works of the law, which are not salvific. What does John say to the people when he is baptizing them? Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Which is reiterated in Acts. Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

And what does Jesus teach? Belief comes before baptism. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It is not the baptism of water that saves, it is belief. The belief that comes with baptism by fire. All thing that follow are done because of that faith and one's desire to follow the commandments.

Ghost air · Aug 18, 2010

Notice the order there... BELIEF and BAPTISM.

If it's talking about water baptism, that makes sense, because baptism is for those who believe.

If it's speaking of being baptized into that one body by the Spirit, then that makes sense too, because Eph 1 tells us that it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER hearing the gospel, and AFTER we believed that we were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.

Apollos1 · Aug 30, 2010

New Dawn - Like I said, faith is not bestowed in baptism.

Agreed. Like I said, FAITH comes from hearing God’s word – Romans 10:17… faith does not come miraculously.

New Dawn said - Baptism is the response to God’s previous indwelling.

??? I am still looking for a scripture from you to support this notion.

New Dawn - It [water baptism]is a work that one does in response to the leadings of the spirit.

If you mean how one is led by the writings of the HS then I can agree.

New Dawn - Baptism follows regeneration and faith..

Water baptism most certainly follows after one with an obedient faith, but I am uncertain what you mean by “regeneration”.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is a NT commandment that is for the remission of sins - Acts 2:38, 10:48 22:16. God is the one that chose the means and chose what the means is for.

New Dawn - Baptism for the remission of sins (John’s baptism) was a pre-sacrifice baptism.

I am not talking about JOHN’s baptism – maybe you were. I am talking about the baptism authorized by Jesus Christ as read about in Matthew 28:18-20. This was a baptism for ALL NATIONS, in water Acts 10:47, for the remission of sins Acts 2:38, 22:16, and “in the name of Jesus Christ” (authorized) Acts 2:38 and 10:48. This is a post-sacrifice baptism.

New Dawn - What does John say to the people when he is baptizing them? Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Which is reiterated in Acts. Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

HS baptism was the result of promise (to the Apostles) and of prophecy. Only two events ever occurred – see Acts 2 and Acts 10.

Baptism in fire (Hell) is the end result of a life of disobedience to God’s will. If you read just one more verse – Luke 3:17 (or its equivalent Matthew 3:12) – you can see this to be true… “…His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

You must retain the context of the passage and you must not interject ideas into it that are not there. There is nothing in either of these passages to suggest your errant notion that the “baptism of fire” instills anyone with belief.

New Dawn - And what does Jesus teach? Belief comes before baptism. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned..

I really wish YOU believed this verse – for I certainly DO! Mark 16:16 – He that believes AND is baptized shall be saved. YOU believe something else. You believe something like…
He that believes SHOULD be baptized. Or…
He that believes WILL be baptized. Or…
He that believes is saved, and CAN be baptized.

But Jesus said, just as you quoted it in your last post…
“He that believes and is baptized… …shall be saved.”

New Dawn - It is not the baptism of water that saves, it is belief..

All that will be saved are saved because of the blood of Jesus Christ. The means selected by God through which man appropriates that salvation made possible by the blood of Christ is water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 3:27 – “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
Do you think you can be saved without “putting” Christ on ???

A New Dawn · Aug 30, 2010

You remember in John 3, when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about being born again? That is regeneration. New birth. Paul spoke of regeneration, too, when he said, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost”. (Titus 3:5). If regeneration is a gift that God gives us, then how can being baptized be required for it? If something is required, then it is no longer a gift, it is a wage. Something we earned.

Apollos1 · Sep 1, 2010

Hey Dawn –

Let review those items you just decided to skip over from my last post…

I was not talking about JOHN’s baptism – were you?

I am talking about the baptism authorized by Jesus Christ as read about in Matthew 28:18-20.

The baptism for ALL NATIONS, in water Acts 10:47, for the remission of sins Acts 2:38, 22:16, and “in the name of Jesus Christ” (authorized) Acts 2:38 and 10:48.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is a NT commandment that is for the remission of sins - Acts 2:38, 10:48 22:16. God is the one that chose the means and chose what the means is for.

Dawn – did you have anything to say about all of this??
-----------------------------

HS baptism was the result of promise (to the Apostles) and of prophecy. Only two events ever occurred – see Acts 2 and Acts 10.

Baptism in fire (Hell) is the end result of a life of disobedience to God’s will. If you read just one more verse – Luke 3:17 (or its equivalent Matthew 3:12) – you can see this to be true… “…His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." There is nothing in either of these passages to suggest your errant notion that the “baptism of fire” instills anyone with belief.

Dawn – any comment on these items??
-----------------

Mark 16:16 – He that believes AND is baptized shall be saved. YOU believe something else. You believe something like…

He that believes SHOULD be baptized. Or…

He that believes WILL be baptized. Or…

He that believes is saved, and CAN be baptized.

Dawn – what do YOU believe this verse says??
<<<*>>>

Galatians 3:27 – “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

Dawn -Do you think you can be saved without “putting” Christ on ???
--- --- --- --- --- ---

Now to your current post...

Dawn said - You remember in John 3, when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about being born again? That is regeneration. New birth. .

So far, so good… Jesus said those born of water and the spirit.

Paul spoke of regeneration, too, when he said, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost”. (Titus 3:5). .

That’s right, the same theme as John 3… water and the spirit! Water baptism is the “washing of regeneration” …born of water and the spirit. Paul agrees with John agrees with Jesus. This is NOT of works WE have done, but rather those works, that God chose for us to do, according to His mercy, He saved us!

Dawn - If regeneration is a gift that God gives us, then how can being baptized be required for it? .

Not everyone will be saved, so what separates the ones that will be saved from the ones that will not? It is what they DO ! And they must DO what God says to DO to appropriate the salvation offered by His grace. Obedience is requisite to receiving the blessing of God.

Dawn - If something is required, then it is no longer a gift, it is a wage. Something we earned..

Errant logic – even a gift must be accepted. Something is always required to obtain a gift… doing something is a necessity.

Earning – if the little lady next door pays you $10,000 to mow her small lawn, did you EARN it? If you fill out a small coupon, drop it in a box, and get called the next day to come pick up a new big screen HDTV because your coupon was the one drawn out of the box, and you drive down to pick it up – did you EARN it?

When God tells you to be baptized in water to obtain the salvation offered to you by His grace, this act doesn't EARN you salvation. It does satisfy the conditions that God choose to appropriate His salvation.

Dawn, clear your mind to obtain a better understanding of the blessings of God and what God requires for them to be appropriated.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is the means selected by God through which man by faith appropriates the salvation that God offers to man by His grace.

How was Paul saved and when ?

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