How tolerant are you of other religions?

Palatka44 · Sep 24, 2003

tcampen said:
Webster's defines tolerance as follows:

tol·er·ance

Pronunciation: 'tä-l&-r&n(t)s, 'täl-r&n(t)s
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : [size=-1]ENDURANCE[/size], [size=-1]FORTITUDE[/size], [size=-1]STAMINA[/size]
2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something :

I think the second definition best fits this Thread. Generally, even the most hardcore, fundamentalist anything "tolerates" religious beliefs that differ from their own. It does not require giving that other position any credance, necessarily, or having to accept it yourself. Just that you aren't automatically compelled to see that the other person's view is changed to conform with your own. Sort of a "live and let live" attitude in a way.

Perhaps the goal should not be to just "tolerate" religious diversity, but celebrate it. Unfortunately, doing this would require giving up some of that exclusive right to the truth.

There is not one thing that I can do to make anybody believe any thing different then what they have set in their hearts to believe. It is after all their choise. It is not in my power to force anything upon them, nor will I even contemplate violence to sway them. I simply herold a warning in accord with the Christian scripture that anything apart from faith in Christ will mean eternal doom. If that is intolerant then so be it.

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Sep 24, 2003

tcampen said:
Some of us are equally saddened on behalf of God when we see Him used as a tool for intolerance, prejudice, hate, and religious oppression simply because they have a different spiritual experience. Or saddened to see people apply their own personal religious experience as the archtype of the only valid experience to have, thereby avoiding such godly virtues as respect, empathy and compassion. But we can still hope and pray, right?

Tcampen, the only person you're truly railing at is God for not letting you choose your own god. To deny people truth to the harm of their souls is not love. To deny the reality of judgment for the sake of cordiality is true hate. We cannot harm others this way. If you don't think there is any love amongst Christians, you haven't seen the edification forums in here. But you've been nothing but critical and harsh in your assessments of truly loving people. I doubt you know half the things that have been happening behind the scenes here at CF, by Christians on behalf of and to the comfort of those who are not.

Why not just talk about what is really bothering you. With a little grace in our speech, it's amazing what the Holy Spirit is willing to do.

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Sep 24, 2003

Havoc said:
Just because you claim it's the truth doesn't make it the truth either.

Truth is always truth. But that doesn't mean you have it just because you claim to.

If you cannot substantiate your claim of truth then your claim is worthless.

You may deem the claim worthless. But it is not worthless if it is true. The value in a claim, at least to a Christian, is its truth. Not its appeal, its mutability, not its sense of human cordiality. To a Christian, the statement that is worthy is the statement that is true. Regardless of how someone else sees it.

I once heard a preacher relate the true story of a couple who had been given a set of drinking glasses that were, in their estimation, terribly ugly. At first they wondered if they had unwittingly offended the giver of the glasses, so ugly were they. The couple put them in the dishwasher. They handled them carelessly. They taught their children how drink from a glass using these ugly glasses. They were hoping the glasses would break.

One day a friend came over and raved at their valuable art-collection glasses. This friend was familiar with the maker, knew something about art, and realized these were quite valuable.

So what did the couple do? They cleaned them, placed them gingerly in a box and stored them on a high shelf.

The glasses were no less collectors' items, they were worth no less money because they were unappreciated at first. It was the couple that changed, not the glasses.

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Sep 24, 2003

Palatka44, Amen, brother. Very good insights.

Havoc · Sep 24, 2003

Whitehorse said:
You may deem the claim worthless. But it is not worthless if it is true. The value in a claim, at least to a Christian, is its truth. Not its appeal, its mutability, not its sense of human cordiality. To a Christian, the statement that is worthy is the statement that is true. Regardless of how someone else sees it.

... meaningless religious anecdote snipped...

It's worthless as a claim unless you can show that it is true. Thus far all you've managed to do in about two weeks of arguement on the subject is to claim you have the truth. You've not once been able to substantiate your claim. Yet you still continue to argue as if you actually had a valid claim to the truth.

The statement that is worthy is the statement that can be shown to be true. The statement that is worthless is the one that is merely claimed to be true. If the value of a claim to a Christian was in it's truth, Chrtistians would be able to prove their claim. Thus far all we've seen is that the value of a claim to a Christian is it's conformity to Doctrine and cute but meaningless anecdotes.

Put your money where your mouth is and prove your claim. Otherwise You'll never rise above the ridiculous.

Palatka44 · Sep 24, 2003

Havoc said:
It's worthless as a claim unless you can show that it is true. Thus far all you've managed to do in about two weeks of arguement on the subject is to claim you have the truth. You've not once been able to substantiate your claim. Yet you still continue to argue as if you actually had a valid claim to the truth.

The statement that is worthy is the statement that can be shown to be true. The statement that is worthless is the one that is merely claimed to be true. If the value of a claim to a Christian was in it's truth, Chrtistians would be able to prove their claim. Thus far all we've seen is that the value of a claim to a Christian is it's conformity to Doctrine and cute but meaningless anecdotes.

Put your money where your mouth is and prove your claim. Otherwise You'll never rise above the ridiculous.

I know that the Christian faith is true. Ask me to prove it? I don't have to. The Truth will be clear soon enough. So come off of your rheteric Havoc and humble yourself today.

John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17:17-19
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

1 Timothy 2:1
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Havoc · Sep 24, 2003

No you don't have to, just like we don't have to accept your ridiculous claim of absolute truth. If you expect people to take you seriously then you should consider a claim you can support, rather than one for which you have no substantive evidence at all.

Humble myself? I'm not the one claiming to have the absolute truth.

peaceful soul · Sep 25, 2003

Havoc said:
No you don't have to, just like we don't have to accept your ridiculous claim of absolute truth. If you expect people to take you seriously then you should consider a claim you can support, rather than one for which you have no substantive evidence at all.

Humble myself? I'm not the one claiming to have the absolute truth.

Sorry to burst your bubble, havoc. We can't verify it to you in substance, but the Holy Spirit can. What we encounter is of a spiritual nature. God relationship to us is spirit. You can't lift it or hold it or point to it. It doesn't come in a box. It is something you can't see, but we know the ever present results of God. It transforms us in how we think, act, and live. You most likely will never see any proof unless you saw how I or one of the other brothers lived their lives.

Believe me, we are not much different than you; except that our lives are now in the hands of God, rather than in our own, foolish clumsy ones. In other words, we don't live by our own rules, but now by God's; for He has great wisdom to know what we need better that ourselves. After all, He created us. I hope you get the point.

My acceptance of Jesus is not an act of arrogance. It is not me who made the rules. It is my God who dictates the rules. He is not a boss in the sense that you may think, He loves me unconditionally and cares for me deeply, and He feels the same way for you too; otherwise you wouldn't be here or still have the chance to meet Him.

He doesn't want you to be left here to perish; so soften your heart and ask Him to show you the Truth. He will. You have to have a change of attitude, though. Don't think that you are in control of everything, God is. It is He that allows you to breath daily. Remember that.

tcampen · Sep 25, 2003

Whitehorse said:
Tcampen, the only person you're truly railing at is God for not letting you choose your own god. To deny people truth to the harm of their souls is not love. To deny the reality of judgment for the sake of cordiality is true hate. We cannot harm others this way. If you don't think there is any love amongst Christians, you haven't seen the edification forums in here. But you've been nothing but critical and harsh in your assessments of truly loving people. I doubt you know half the things that have been happening behind the scenes here at CF, by Christians on behalf of and to the comfort of those who are not.

Why not just talk about what is really bothering you. With a little grace in our speech, it's amazing what the Holy Spirit is willing to do.

Ok, you got me. I'm really upset because I love my sinful ways too much to give up, and have rejected the one true god thru Jesus Christ because it means I would have love god more than myself. Hey, is that what you wanted to hear? Sure, I could tell you all those things, but the wouldn't be the TRUTH, and last time I checked, even YOUR interpretation of God doesn't appreciate people who lie - including lying to themselves. I have proposed a slightly different approach to viewing other religions, yet I'm still getting the "I know you are, but what am I" response, now mixed in with a belittling "what is really bothering you?" attitude.

Sorry, but I am NOT railing against GOD. I am railing against YOUR INTERPRETATION of God and how you apply it to your fellow humans. The fact you are incapable of comprehending this simple fact is precisely what is "really bothering" me. The condescending attitute towards others of different faiths is what's "really bothering" me. The position that one person's subjective beliefs are above all other's, but arrogantly claiming that they are God's beliefs rather than their own, is what's "really bothering" me.

Finally, avoiding the real issues and spouting ad hominim retorts is what's "really bothering" me. Perhaps reasoned, on-point responses simply aren't possible, which would explain much.

vajradhara · Sep 25, 2003

tcampen said:
Ok, you got me. I'm really upset because I love my sinful ways too much to give up, and have rejected the one true god thru Jesus Christ because it means I would have love god more than myself. Hey, is that what you wanted to hear? Sure, I could tell you all those things, but the wouldn't be the TRUTH, and last time I checked, even YOUR interpretation of God doesn't appreciate people who lie - including lying to themselves. I have proposed a slightly different approach to viewing other religions, yet I'm still getting the "I know you are, but what am I" response, now mixed in with a belittling "what is really bothering you?" attitude.

Sorry, but I am NOT railing against GOD. I am railing against YOUR INTERPRETATION of God and how you apply it to your fellow humans. The fact you are incapable of comprehending this simple fact is precisely what is "really bothering" me. The condescending attitute towards others of different faiths is what's "really bothering" me. The position that one person's subjective beliefs are above all other's, but arrogantly claiming that they are God's beliefs rather than their own, is what's "really bothering" me.

Finally, avoiding the real issues and spouting ad hominim retorts is what's "really bothering" me. Perhaps reasoned, on-point responses simply aren't possible, which would explain much.

Namaste tcampen,

you're my hero!!!

Havoc · Sep 25, 2003

peaceful soul said:
Sorry to burst your bubble, havoc. We can't verify it to you in substance, but the Holy Spirit can. What we encounter is of a spiritual nature. God relationship to us is spirit. You can't lift it or hold it or point to it. It doesn't come in a box. It is something you can't see, but we know the ever present results of God. It transforms us in how we think, act, and live. You most likely will never see any proof unless you saw how I or one of the other brothers lived their lives.

If you can't verify it in substance then you can't verify it. You therefore have nothing more than a claim of trith. The Holy Spirit can, if it exists, which is also speculation and claim.

What makes you think I don't understand a relationship with the Divine? I'm not an atheist. I do have a personal and intimate relationship with the Divine. It transforms how I think, act, and live. I manage to have the same, or at least descriptively equivalent, experiences you claim to have, but without your God.

Believe me, we are not much different than you; except that our lives are now in the hands of God, rather than in our own, foolish clumsy ones. In other words, we don't live by our own rules, but now by God's; for He has great wisdom to know what we need better that ourselves. After all, He created us. I hope you get the point.

The only real difference I can see is that I don't need to lapse into meaningless religious rhetoric to support a ridiculous claim of absolute truth. The difference between us is that the idea that what I have is a perception, a belief, does not terrify me the way it does you.

My acceptance of Jesus is not an act of arrogance.

NO it is your ridiculous claim of absolute truth that is made out of arrogance... or fear.

It is not me who made the rules. It is my God who dictates the rules. He is not a boss in the sense that you may think,

So you say. I have no reason to believe that your beliefs in the nature of the Divine correspond to reality. You may talk about them as if they were fact, but they certainly have no evidenctial basis to be thus.

He loves me unconditionally and cares for me deeply, and He feels the same way for you too; otherwise you wouldn't be here or still have the chance to meet Him.

I'm glad you believe your God loves you. He's not my God and I have no reason to believe he has anything to do with my being here.

He doesn't want you to be left here to perish; so soften your heart and ask Him to show you the Truth. He will. You have to have a change of attitude, though. Don't think that you are in control of everything, God is. It is He that allows you to breath daily. Remember that.

Why should I want to change my beliefs to conform to yours? If your God exists he is a Monster of Godlike proportions. I prefer to stay with my beliefs in Gods which do not destroy most of their creation for nothing more than a poor choice due to lack of evidence. I have no reason to believe your God has anything at all to do with my breath, your meaningless religious rhetoric notwithstanding.

You not only do not have any evidence to support your claim of absolute truth (thus the resorting to "appeal to emotion" fallacy), you don't even have a very logical God to present in a sea of beliefs in other Gods and Goddesses. Sorry to burst your Bubble but your're not the only alternative, nor even a very good one (judging by your religions rate of decline), to Atheism.

peaceful soul · Sep 25, 2003

Havoc said:
If you can't verify it in substance then you can't verify it. You therefore have nothing more than a claim of trith. The Holy Spirit can, if it exists, which is also speculation and claim.

What makes you think I don't understand a relationship with the Divine? I'm not an atheist. I do have a personal and intimate relationship with the Divine. It transforms how I think, act, and live. I manage to have the same, or at least descriptively equivalent, experiences you claim to have, but without your God.

The only real difference I can see is that I don't need to lapse into meaningless religious rhetoric to support a ridiculous claim of absolute truth. The difference between us is that the idea that what I have is a perception, a belief, does not terrify me the way it does you.

Thanks for the reply.
NO it is your ridiculous claim of absolute truth that is made out of arrogance... or fear.

So you say. I have no reason to believe that your beliefs in the nature of the Divine correspond to reality. You may talk about them as if they were fact, but they certainly have no evidenctial basis to be thus.

I'm glad you believe your God loves you. He's not my God and I have no reason to believe he has anything to do with my being here.

Why should I want to change my beliefs to conform to yours? If your God exists he is a Monster of Godlike proportions. I prefer to stay with my beliefs in Gods which do not destroy most of their creation for nothing more than a poor choice due to lack of evidence. I have no reason to believe your God has anything at all to do with my breath, your meaningless religious rhetoric notwithstanding.

You not only do not have any evidence to support your claim of absolute truth (thus the resorting to "appeal to emotion" fallacy), you don't even have a very logical God to present in a sea of beliefs in other Gods and Goddesses. Sorry to burst your Bubble but your're not the only alternative, nor even a very good one (judging by your religions rate of decline), to Atheism.

Thank you for enlightening me.

Sarah :) · Oct 2, 2003

I'm tolerant of all religions.

Aaron11 · Dec 16, 2003

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Philo · Dec 16, 2003

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Philo · Dec 16, 2003

Rule No. 4 - No "Offensive" or "Illegal" Posts, Links or Images

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FOMWatts<><

Aaron11 · Dec 16, 2003

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Philo · Dec 16, 2003

Man, you are such a hypocrite! Hypocrites should probably be banned. Hypocrisy is not an acceptable way to think. Us tolerant people HATE hypocrites like nothing else. I am totally telling a mod.

Aaron11 · Dec 16, 2003

I kill intolerant people.

Philo · Dec 16, 2003

Dude, that is uncalled for... But strangely appealing. Can we be best friends?

How tolerant are you of other religions?

How tolerant are you?

I don't tolerant other religions well at all

I tolerate people of other beliefs, but know they are wrong

I see merits in other faiths besides my own

I tolerate people believing anything at all

I can easily tolerate faiths related or close to my own

I can easily tolerate faiths that are popular in my culture

I accept every faith as possibly true

I don't believe in any religion, and think they are all dumb

I believe in no religion, but see merits in some

I am undecided or different

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