How to get through to Conservatives?

AHH who-stole-my-name said:

I apologize profusely to you for quoting you coments. It was a thoughtless act that was thouroghly unfair to you. I should have posted it before, without bringing anyone else into it.

My comments should have been a general ones that encompassed the entire partisan ideal including the wording in the title of the post. Please forgive me.

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Whether or not an apology is appropriate, I appreciate what you said here.

Albion said:

Whether or not an apology is appropriate, I appreciate what you said here.

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I try to be fair. Sometimes try is a rather large word and so large it's indistinguishable from the size of my ignorance.

I grew up in a conservative church (Baptist)
Once, I refused to be part of a youth trip and when my dad asked why I said" Because I am not going to do anything while so and so and his wife are the youth directors" . My dad paused, and he said "They sure are some hateful people, aren't they?"

I think he summed it up. It is full of hateful people.

But here is why. Many brands (ie denominations, branches etc) are based on fear, not on love. A Christian lifestyle based on love will be tolerant and charitable to all, even rising to the challenge of CHrist saying to Love they neighbor as thyself"
But a mindset which exists first and foremost as a fear of hell, the Devil etc, and where God is interpreted in strictly old testament terms and a vengeful, rathful, misogynist, then yes, such thinking would go against the teachings of love and acceptance and lean towards fear and hatred.

Yoda * Said it best
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”
From what I have seen, on the forum, and others, from times I have spent around the country worshiping and talking with members of conservative congregations, the overwhelming focus is on fear and anger, anger at liberals, gays, the government, Muslims etc This hatred pervades all of their lives, making them unhappy , miserable, and yearning for a day of judgement, when Jesus will return and defeat their enemies, and put an end to their suffering.

SO how do we as Christians combat this? Well, by two things. One, be a good example. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Practice love and acceptance, just as Jesus would accept all those who come to him. (I won;t scripture mine this becaues we all probably know where it is, if not, then someone does not know the scripture as well as they claim, but it is well written.)
Second, be a beacon of Christ's light to end suffering in your community. People have needs, and many go with unmet needs of basics, food clothing shelter. Religion is far from the basic desire of one who has not eaten in a week. Donate, share, help. Volunteer at the food kitchen, lead a food drive at your church, donate some extra money, old clothes, furniture to shelters. Be the Loving CHristian people would want to be. Inspire with love, not with fear.

In the end, Cooler and Smarter heads will prevail. The fundamentalist movement is failing as we speak, and their fear and anger is only a symptom of their desperation and misery. Change is a natural part of the world. Rather than fight it, learn to see it through the eyes of love. This is by far the better path.



* Fictional character, real quote and true.

RickardoHolmes said:

I grew up in a conservative church (Baptist)
Once, I refused to be part of a youth trip and when my dad asked why I said" Because I am not going to do anything while so and so and his wife are the youth directors" . My dad paused, and he said "They sure are some hateful people, aren't they?"

I think he summed it up. It is full of hateful people.

But here is why. Many brands (ie denominations, branches etc) are based on fear, not on love. A Christian lifestyle based on love will be tolerant and charitable to all, even rising to the challenge of CHrist saying to Love they neighbor as thyself"

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I'd say that what you are describing is not synonymous with "conservative" in religion. I hope we can stop thinking of them as identical.

There are many theologically traditional or conservative churches that hold to the 'faith of our fathers' and are not at all like you describe. It may, in fact, be that you are describing Baptists or Fundamentalists more than you're describing Conservatives.

That's what I hear from friends who find the Baptist churches of their acquaintance 'too much' for them. But the point is not to stereotype Baptists of Fundamentalists, who come in many varieties, but to suggest that the most direct way to deal with this problem--if you consider it to be a problem--is to find another church!

Marius27 said:

Do you guys believe it's possible to get through to conservatives that the way they act is often harmful and not conducive to acting like Christ? Every discussion that comes up about something they disagree with, especially LGBT people, turns into a trash show acting like those people are the biggest demons in the world. Do conservatives really not understand how much harm and suffering they cause LGBT people to constantly be viewed/treated like that?

What is the solution, just force gays to be lonely and miserable for the rest of their life due to some archaic legalistic rules that make no logical sense? It makes no sense to me and makes it hard for me not to hold resentment towards them and Christianity as a whole. Just seems like a hopeless situation.

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Yeah, Honest, that's a great way to get through to conservatives! Big, all caps, and insults.

Sweeeet.

Marius27 said:

Just seems like far too many Christians don't care who they harm or what damage is caused, as long as they believe they're following the letter of God's law. There is no analysis or logical thinking involved. I see a distinct lack of compassion and empathy. Sadly, this same group believes themselves incapable of being wrong, and thus it seems getting through to them is in fact impossible.

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Religion is immaterial to those types of people, because if were not faith it would be something else they would abuse as a stepping stone to reached the quote/unquote pentacle they reach to pass judgement on the rest of the world and condemn everybody else for not being them and not listening to their words. God, to these people is only a servant they figure that follows them around and backs up everything they say and do because they scream Jesus and hold a cross.

One of the greatest examples of these are the Westbough Baptist Church. The way I figure it, they only went after the lady in Kentucky because she was sucking the wind out of their sails with who they think is God and wanted to throw ice water on her, so-called parade.

Marius27 said:

Just seems like far too many Christians don't care who they harm or what damage is caused, as long as they believe they're following the letter of God's law. There is no analysis or logical thinking involved. I see a distinct lack of compassion and empathy. Sadly, this same group believes themselves incapable of being wrong, and thus it seems getting through to them is in fact impossible.

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We all can work on this issue. Conservatives and Liberals.

The Conservatives do interpret scripture literally. Their challenge is to make sure they love the person and hate the sin. This takes skill. Conservatives need to work on this skill. I'm a Conservative. I'm working on it with the help of my family and friends who are always ready with a comment on my mis-behavior. I accept the challenge and I grow. I prefer to deal with my mis-behavior because everyone benefits, including me. For me, mis-behavior generally starts with wrong ideas. So when a mis-behavior is pointed out to me I have to ask God what's going on with me? He's always gracious and clear about where I started going wrong, and how I can make it right.

Liberals are more relative. I'm not a liberal so I'm not sure what your challenges to personal growth are. What would you say about the shortcomings of liberalism?

FYI, I'm one of many who've been tasked with the job of helping Admin turn the tide of hatred away from GLBT. If there's anything that needs dealing with, please direct me toward it so that I can help the Admins make CF a safe place for you.

If I'm offtrack on anything concerning your situation tune me in and I'll adjust.

God bless you with His love and provision.

Marius27 said:

Do you guys believe it's possible to get through to conservatives that the way they act is often harmful and not conducive to acting like Christ? Every discussion that comes up about something they disagree with, especially LGBT people, turns into a trash show acting like those people are the biggest demons in the world. Do conservatives really not understand how much harm and suffering they cause LGBT people to constantly be viewed/treated like that?

What is the solution, just force gays to be lonely and miserable for the rest of their life due to some archaic legalistic rules that make no logical sense? It makes no sense to me and makes it hard for me not to hold resentment towards them and Christianity as a whole. Just seems like a hopeless situation.

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I do believe there's hope for Conservatives and Liberals to start to dialogue rather than make war.

Admin has made a commitment to try to make CF a safe place for everyone to receive God's love.

I believe this is a sign that this Conservative Christian Site is concerned about everyone.

Help us in what ever way you can to promote love and unity.

Let me know what issues concern you. PM me or start a thread here so I can learn what you need done.

We're going to be one big happy family when this is over because this is what Jesus wants.

We might interpret scripture differently but what huge extended family doesn't have different perspectives on issues.

Your concerns about promoting love and acceptance and abolishing hatred have been heard.

Let's see what God can do with us all.

I'll be away from CF now until Yom Kippur is over, so I'll see you Thursday.

God bless you and meet all your needs in Christ Jesus.

Truthfrees said:

Help us in what ever way you can to promote love and unity.

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This is tough.

First, you need to look at two issues. One is mutual respect between people who accept gays and those who don’t. The other is how people who are or think they might be gay are treated when they ask for help or support. I think the first question is more tractable than the second.

RESPECT BETWEEN POINTS OF VIEW

I’m an elder in the PCUSA. We’ve been through this for a couple of decades. You might want to look at our experience.

The basic problem is that neither side sees this as a permissible difference of opinion. The PCUSA tried to treat it that way. But we found that conservatives consider rejection of homosexuality to be essential to the Gospel.

Liberals have had our own history of narrow-mindedness. In the controversy over ordination of women, and the early 20th Cent controversy over fundamentalism, the liberal majority ended up ejecting some conservatives. We’re trying to avoid that in the current controversy.

The moderators have acted consistently (to the extent that they have the manpower to do so) to quash attacks against Catholics. Are you prepared to have the same consistent policy of quashing accusations that those who accept homosexuality are non-Christians, apostate, etc? Surely the concern over the first Commandment and other Catholic-related issues are at least as central to the Gospel as whether or not we accept gays. Are you prepared to accept the fact that saying liberals are giving into the culture rather than following Scripture is in fact a personal attack?

I don’t think anything short of treating these issues the same way will allow true coexistence. But I think you’ll lose a fair number of your most vocal contributors if you do that.

If you’re seriously interested in doing that, you might consider setting an example. The current policy is not really even-handed. You’re adopted a partisan definition of marriage, and your wording makes the site management’s own position pretty obvious. You don’t take a similar line on Catholic-related issues. I think it’s going to be hard to get real cooperation if you’re not prepared to welcome people who accept gays on equal terms in your own staff. The current policy statement makes it seem that your staff isn’t open to people who are accepting.

I’m really glad to see CF trying to deal with this issue. I applaud you for what you’ve done so far. It's a good start. But you need to do some self-examination if your goals are as stated in the posting.

TREATMENT OF GAYS

I think it’s reasonably possible for CF to allow people who take different positions on the issue to coexist.

However my initial guess is that you won’t be able to make CF a safe place for someone who is gay to look for support. The only way that can happen is much more aggressive moderation than you’ve ever done. If the current vote succeeds in only a few forums, you might be able to moderate them more closely. But I have yet to see any request for help from someone who is or thinks they might be gay not end up attacking either them or the people trying to support them.

The only way I think that CF could be made safe for that kind of interaction would be aggressive enforcement of a policy that someone asking for personal support in a group that accepts gays may only be answered by people who accept them. We can tolerate disagreement in doctrinal threads, but not in response to a request for help or support. But enforcement would have to be nearly immediate, and always result in removal of the posting. I’m skeptical.

The whole thing with the icons is why I changed mine to private. It's a small thing but I would rather stand in solidarity with those who are being denied.

Did you see where I asked and was told there wasn't a single dissenting opinion when they took their vote on denying SSM. That still takes my breath away.

Hetta said:

The whole thing with the icons is why I changed mine to private. It's a small thing but I would rather stand in solidarity with those who are being denied.

Did you see where I asked and was told there wasn't a single dissenting opinion when they took their vote on denying SSM. That still takes my breath away.

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No I didn't. I am working on a post to share what makes a Conservative so literal on scripture interpretation, and also if God permits, a post on why Conservatives have a hard time with the agendas the liberals promote.

I was hoping someone could then post a similar set of posts explaining what makes a Liberal so relative on their scripture interpretation, and what makes Liberals so resistant to Conservatives being allowed their agendas.

It will be more clear what I mean when I post these 2 posts. I have read through much of what's been posted here, but would like to hit some highlight points to start with.

I hope to make those posts in the next few days.

I believe those posts will help you Liberals see how best to communicate your needs to Conservatives, and then when you post in kind, I'm hoping that we Conservatives will learn how to best communicate with Liberals.

Right now we seem worlds apart because we have vastly different perspectives on what scripture says is the priorities of a Christian. And I believe this is why we war instead of dialogue.

Please be patient. CF has decided GLBT are people of value and CF wants to try to stop hatred against GLBT.

We're going to get this sorted out because Jesus wants it sorted out.

hedrick said:

This is tough.

First, you need to look at two issues. One is mutual respect between people who accept gays and those who don’t. The other is how people who are or think they might be gay are treated when they ask for help or support. I think the first question is more tractable than the second.

RESPECT BETWEEN POINTS OF VIEW

I’m an elder in the PCUSA. We’ve been through this for a couple of decades. You might want to look at our experience.

The basic problem is that neither side sees this as a permissible difference of opinion. The PCUSA tried to treat it that way. But we found that conservatives consider rejection of homosexuality to be essential to the Gospel.

Liberals have had our own history of narrow-mindedness. In the controversy over ordination of women, and the early 20th Cent controversy over fundamentalism, the liberal majority ended up ejecting some conservatives. We’re trying to avoid that in the current controversy.

The moderators have acted consistently (to the extent that they have the manpower to do so) to quash attacks against Catholics. Are you prepared to have the same consistent policy of quashing accusations that those who accept homosexuality are non-Christians, apostate, etc? Surely the concern over the first Commandment and other Catholic-related issues are at least as central to the Gospel as whether or not we accept gays. Are you prepared to accept the fact that saying liberals are giving into the culture rather than following Scripture is in fact a personal attack?

I don’t think anything short of treating these issues the same way will allow true coexistence. But I think you’ll lose a fair number of your most vocal contributors if you do that.

If you’re seriously interested in doing that, you might consider setting an example. The current policy is not really even-handed. You’re adopted a partisan definition of marriage, and your wording makes the site management’s own position pretty obvious. You don’t take a similar line on Catholic-related issues. I think it’s going to be hard to get real cooperation if you’re not prepared to welcome people who accept gays on equal terms in your own staff. The current policy statement makes it seem that your staff isn’t open to people who are accepting.

I’m really glad to see CF trying to deal with this issue. I applaud you for what you’ve done so far. It's a good start. But you need to do some self-examination if your goals are as stated in the posting.

TREATMENT OF GAYS

I think it’s reasonably possible for CF to allow people who take different positions on the issue to coexist.

However my initial guess is that you won’t be able to make CF a safe place for someone who is gay to look for support. The only way that can happen is much more aggressive moderation than you’ve ever done. If the current vote succeeds in only a few forums, you might be able to moderate them more closely. But I have yet to see any request for help from someone who is or thinks they might be gay not end up attacking either them or the people trying to support them.

The only way I think that CF could be made safe for that kind of interaction would be aggressive enforcement of a policy that someone asking for personal support in a group that accepts gays may only be answered by people who accept them. We can tolerate disagreement in doctrinal threads, but not in response to a request for help or support. But enforcement would have to be nearly immediate, and always result in removal of the posting. I’m skeptical.

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Excellent post Hedrick. Thank you for laying the points out so clearly.

Let me assure you that CF is committed to creating a Christian community that expresses consistent love toward everyone.

I will refer your post to my Supervisors. They're the ones who started this new move promoting Christian love for everyone.

They started it a while back when they posted the VISION at the beginning of the rules. http://www.christianforums.com/help/rules/

There's a reason why Conservatives believe as they do. I will clarify all this in 2 posts later today or maybe tomorrow.

For now as you said: "conservatives consider rejection of homosexuality to be essential to the Gospel." But please remember this is talking about the sin, not the sinner. So based on the commandment to love the sinner even while hating the sin (Jude 23), we can motivate Conservatives to treat the human being better, even while taking a stand against the sin.

This is what I and others have been tasked with doing right now. We have to start somewhere so treating GLBT like valuable human beings is a great start IMO, don't you think?

OF course there will be more to do later, but we have to start somewhere.

GLBT aren't the only people who get attacked on CF. Hateful people can find something to attack almost anywhere. But right now CF is focussing on what's happening to GLBTs, and will be directing it's prayers and actions toward helping.

So for now, everyone, if you see something hateful, please PM me so that I can take action. Give me the post link and a highlight of what is hateful. Or maybe I'll ask if I'm allowed to start a thread here so you can post the links in a thread. I'll get back to you on that.

Can you ALSO pm me with details of what you say has been done for Catholics that isn't being done for GLBT? I'm not sure what has changed for the Catholics, and what you envision in a similar manner for GBLT. The more details the better.

I was raised a Conservative so I'll need help understanding the Liberal perspective.

hedrick said:

The basic problem is that neither side sees this as a permissible difference of opinion. The PCUSA tried to treat it that way. But we found that conservatives consider rejection of homosexuality to be essential to the Gospel.

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So what did the PCUSA do about the issue?

What are some of the good points you think would be applicable in this situation?

Marius27 said:

This is quite true. And it will never happen here, so long as ultra conservatives are the only or dominate staff on this board. For example, these statements in a thread discussing the new M/F marriage status under our names:

Yes, it is only M/F; God has made the perfectly clear in both tradition and Scripture. There is not M/M, no F/F, no Dog/Cat, no Human/Alien choices; just plain, old, married with a guy and a girl. Others may argue otherwise, but they are wrong.

It is no secret that there are those Churches that have no issue following secular society's lead in calling "other" unions marriage;

I know three gay couples that are, as far as they are concerned "married"; as far as I am and CF is concerned they are not.

I will continue to wear the Married (M/F) identifier as a badge of honor; it tells others that I know what marriage really is.

These statements are not from a member, not even from a Mod. They are from an Administrator. Aside from the fact that I think those statements represent an enormous amount of arrogance and pride, it's evident when you have the top level staff members here saying it's their beliefs, or you're wrong, you will never have liberals and conservatives coexisting here. Gays will never feel welcome or seek support, and this board will continue to lose members as it has been for awhile now. The staff have no interest co-existence or open-mindedness. They are rigid and absolute about their own beliefs. Everyone but them is wrong.


I don't see this happening, based on how the staff members here view gays. That Pink Swastika post linking gays to Nazis was not removed by staff. All they did is make a one word edit. They still allow viewpoints from people who advocate exterminating gays worldwide to be supported here. This board will NEVER be safe for gays or their supporters. Honestly, it's turning into Rapture Ready.

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I understand. I hear what you're saying. Hated of people is what will first be addressed.

I will post on the subject of Conservative and Liberal world views to get more info from you all. IMO, this is the reason the 2 sides deadlock.

Thanks for pointing out the issues.

Truthfrees said:

So what did the PCUSA do about the issue?

What are some of the good points you think would be applicable in this situation?

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The PCUSA had discussions about this for decades. We tried to get both sides to understand each other, to come up with ways of coexisting. There were projects to get people talking about it with individual congregations and within presbyteries. But none of it worked, because conservatives had a core belief that they couldn’t coexist in the same Church with anyone who accepts gays. We could be as a polite, as understanding, and as Christian as possible. It didn’t matter.

Various types of local option were proposed. But they all would result in gays being openly accepted in some part of the Church, and many of our conservatives simply could never accept that.

When it became clear that no kind of compromise would possibly help, we simply changed the rules to allow presbyteries (for pastors) and congregations (for ruling elders and deacons) to choose the candidates that they thought were best, with no specific constitutional rule about sexual practice. We understood that many conservatives would leave, and they have done so.

A few years later we changed the rules to permit marriage of gays. There are specific provisions to protect pastors and congregations that don’t want to allow it. But again, this isn’t enough.

Interestingly, many of the churches leaving recently are going to a denomination whose theology is basically about as liberal as ours. They accept the recent confessions, e.g. the Confession of 1967, which explicitly teaches the same principles of interpreting Scripture that we use. While they claim there are more general issues, the only difference I can see is that they don’t accept gays. I think this is a temporary denomination, that will reunite with us in a generation.

As to the situation of CF, I don't think anything you can do will bring real peace. We tried it, and it wasn't possible. We have one group that thinks the other is teaching something that is seriously anti-Christian. In what should be my home forum (Presbyterian) the majority of posters think the largest Presbyterian church is apostate. This is something CF can't fix. Having a few forums that permit acceptance of gays, and clamping down hard on attacks against it, may be the best you can do.

The most serious practical issue for me is that I really have no home forum. The majority of Presbyterians can't really use the Presbyterian forum. It's denominated by aggressive conservatives. The liberal forum is a bit too liberal for the mainline denominations such as the PCUSA. Not so much in its theology as in its interests. Most mainline denominations have forums where the primary church can use it. ELCA, Methodists, Episcopal, etc, can use their forum. But PCUSA people can't really use the Presbyterian forum.

Good luck on your postings, but I think most of us know enough conservatives to understand where they're coming from. I do have conservative Christian friends, after all. I just think you're kidding yourselves, that no one can be consistently "literal", because the nature of the Bible doesn't support that, that you aren't consistently literal, and that in practice which passages you take as literal change over time as new developments such as acceptance of interracial marriage or gays stop being so new and threatening. I don't mean that I think conservative Christians are dishonest. Many are fine Christians who really want to serve God. But it's easy for one's biases to creep into exegesis, and I think they're doing so here.

Let me tell you a story. In another Christian site, someone described an event in the Russian Orthodox Church. A priest was tricked into conducting a gay marriage. When the bishop found out, he brought in a demolition team to destroy the church building. It had been irreversibly desecrated. What surprised me wasn’t that Russians would do that, but that many of the US posters admired their courage. To me this shows just what level of irrational emotion is behind this issue. It’s not just a disagreement about how we do exegesis.

Swastika has been removed. See, things are changing.