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How to get through to Conservatives?

Truthfrees

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Please clarify what you mean so that this conservative Christian can understand your statements.

What reasons are you talking about?

If a women has a serious life-threatening pregnancy, a doctor in hospital does the abortion.

For a non-life-threatening pregnancy, women go to abortion clinics.

99% of abortions are non-life-threatening.

So if a women's life is not threatened, why would she kill an innocent baby?

Here's some statistics:

1. https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

2. http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/

When you read the reports, the 99% are aborting because they say they can't afford or don't want to keep the baby.

So my question remains, why not find a form of contraception in these cases?

Why not choose a peaceful solution rather than a violent one?

Pet owners can find a peaceful humane way to plan pet families.

Why can't the rest of us find a peaceful humane way to plan human families?
 
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Wgw

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The problem with euthanasia and abortion is that they infringe upon the rights of vulnerable people. Euthanasia is more cost-effective than proper hospice care, and invariably leads to abuses when elderly people do not wish to be a "burden." This is why members from all sides of the House of Commons voted together to defeat euthanasia in a free vote (not party political).
 
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RedPonyDriver

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If you had experienced what I did while watching my mother die, your attitude would probably be much different. It would have been so much better for my mother if she could have just been given an overdose of morphine or something to end her suffering. I wouldn't keep a pet alive in such circumstances, why is it ok to let a person suffer in that manner?
 
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Wgw

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I have watched my grandmother die from cancer and lost my father just weeks ago, so please do not presume to lecture me on this issue. I am verry sorry for the suffering your mother experienced; this is a very compelling argument for palliative care. Note also that doctors are not prevented from administering painkillers for prophylaxis when as a secondary effect death may result.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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Who said I was lecturing? I am stating my ideas and opinions and giving the reason why I believe as I do. I would have given anything to end my mother's suffering. Her brain was so damaged that the pain killers didn't do much for her...they tried fentanyl patches and the whole thing. Her suffering did nothing more than solidify my opinion that euthanasia is not the boogey man some folks think it is. At one point I was ready to load my gun and shoot her to end her suffering. Again, I would never have let a pet of mine suffer that way, yet had to watch my mother suffer ungodly amounts of pain before she finally died.
 
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Wgw

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I really can't get into the specifics of your case; I can however observe that there is a problem with poor palliative care, but this does not justify creating a legal means wherein vulnerable people could be pressured to prematurely end their lives.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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I really can't get into the specifics of your case; I can however observe that there is a problem with poor palliative care, but this does not justify creating a legal means wherein vulnerable people could be pressured to prematurely end their lives.

I disagree...and I also disagree regarding "pressure"...there are legal safeguards in place in the states that allow assisted suicide.
 
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Wgw

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I disagree...and I also disagree regarding "pressure"...there are legal safeguards in place in the states that allow assisted suicide.

Safeguards which pale in comparison to the supreme safeguard of not allowing euthanasia. Especially when you have people under the delusion that they have the right to take the life of a relative who is in severe suffering who cannot consent to that, for example, infant euthanasia under the Groningen protocol.

There must be a positive ban on any medical procedure which facilitates the voluntary or involuntary termination of vital existence. This is neccessary in order to protect the interests of vulnerable people. The state can know what is best in certain circumstances, where that knowledge is inherently obvious and connected fundamentally to human dignity.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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We will not discuss "human dignity"...that is a baloney term for "make them suffer until they die naturally". I am opposed to that beyond words...
Where is the human dignity of the people sleeping in the streets? Why isn't there a more concerted effort to get people off the streets and given the dignity of a safe home, food, clothing, mental health and medical help?

If you are talking about "human dignity" and oppose any government or otherwise programs to help those who are the least of these, I think you are full of baloney.

By the way, this is the liberal forum and conservative idea will be challenged. You cannot and will not change my opinions, neither will you affect my activism to change those things that conservatives claim to hold dear (like "human dignity") to get to where ALL lives are lived in a manner that befits those who are created in the image and likeness of our Creator.
 
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Wgw

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We will not discuss "human dignity"...that is a baloney term for "make them suffer until they die naturally". I am opposed to that beyond words...

As am I, hence my support for high quality palliative care. The problem with euthanasia from a purely political perspective is that it creates a risk for the coercion of vulnerable persons into ending their lives prematurely. From a Christian perspective, it is a violation of the dignity of the human person, which is an icon of God; it is also potentially disadvantageous to the patient in terms of their soteriological status unless one takes a universalist view. From a philosphical perspective, setting aside questions of eschatology, one could argue life in pain is better than death. At any rate. the law of double effect means that a doctor can apply treatments the primary effect of which is to reduce pain, where death may result, and I cannot object to this, because there are obvious cases of severe pain where a risk to life is warranted in order to manage it.


I would agree, at least in part. If by the word "any" you mean that I would be full of baloney unless I supported, or did not oppose, all programs to assist homeless and disadvamtaged persons, I would disagree simply because some programs are ineffective, and in some cases, some charities that receive state financing misuse those funds (see the recent very disagreeable case of Kids Company). In addition, some programs do stigmatize their clients, and we must be very careful, to the fullest extent, to avoid such stigmatization in order to protect individual dignity.

There are varying definitions of liberalism; most posters in this thread who you have disagreed with could be regarded as classically liberal. One benefit of "conservativism" as a label is that, used properly, it is not inherently ideological in terms of relating to any grand social vision; it is a very low level, nitty gritty, implementation-centric and details oriented approach to politics driven by questions of practicality. So as a conservative, I am able to support state assistance of the homeless, because I am not wedded to classical liberal approaches to economics, which can work out to be illiberal; at the same time I am not obliged to endorse the entire program of social liberalism where this can be shown to be ineffective. In general however, the visible homeless are among the most worthy recipients of assistance; no one should be homeless. we have the resources to deal with the problem, and I think it is in the best interests of society to deal with it effectively by providing housing and support services for such individuals that is free from stigma.

Lastly, I do very much support your idea that humans deserve to be treated as lvong images of God; this idea is central to the iconographic theology of Orthodoxy. I think you would find much to admire in St. Basil the Great, who organized the first institution you or I would recognize as a hospital, or St. John Chrysostom, who was exiled unto death for criticizing the decadent, indulgent lifestyle of the Imperial court in the face of the neglect of impoverished persons in Constantinople and elsewhere. There is a disagreeable crypto-Gnosticism in some of the ideologies that get passed around as conservative Christianity and it sounds as though you lack this, which is theologically and otherwise to your credit. In no sense do I disagree with your vision, I merely think some of your policy positions are inconsistent wih the basic premise of honouring the divine image in humanity.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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Honoring the divine image in humanity DOES NOT involve forcing someone to endure suffering beyond comprehension. That whole idea of suffering united to Christ's suffering on the cross is insane. I was raised/educated Roman Catholic and I always found that idea idiotic and insane.

Honoring the divine image in humanity allows for a death with dignity, not shrieking incoherently in pain, not forced to endure ineffective treatments, and allowed to die with a shred of that human dignity left. In my mother's case, it was something that had been discussed in some depth years before...yet I was not able to give her the dignified death she wished. I, myself, have a living will and a medical power of attorney...that if I am ever in the state where I am suffering, I want my life ended, quickly and as painlessly as possible.

Regarding the rest of things...I am currently in talks with certain sources of funding to start buying and refurbishing vacant hotels/motels where I live to turn them into shelters/housing for homeless people. THAT is what I am talking about regarding dignity of the human being. We hope to have our first one open by late spring of next year.
 
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Wgw

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At present there is a right to refuse treatment, whereas I fear what you are describing sounds a bit like involuntary euthanasia for those in severe pain.
 
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hedrick

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I'm liberal on most issues, but euthanasia worries me. How long before insurance companies consider it unreasonable to fund long-term care, because there's always an alternative available?
Unfortunately you don't have to be paranoid to be worried about that kind of thing.
 
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