How to become perfect.

capnator · Dec 23, 2006

1 sam 2:2 [There is] none holy as the LORD: for [there is] none beside thee: neither [is there] any rock like our God.

Only God is holy, Only God is perfect.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

and yet we are told to be holy. How?

2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Pet 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Wow! in the same way that we are given salvation, we are given the divine nature! Not saying we are God but we contain God. Holiness(what god is) is given to us.

Don't focus on trying to be good! Put your energy in seeking to abide in Christ. Or maybe just allowing Christ to abide in us. But remember to love God is to obey God.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We bear fruit while in the vine... in our own effort there is no fruit. Actually it's better than that, we bear MUCH fruit in the vine, irrespective of how fruitful you think you could be. Also note this

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Father perfects us! We don't do it, all we do is choose to stay in the vine and be perfected(pruned).... we are HIS workmanship, anyone else's work is rubbish, a withered branch outside of the vine.

Sounds easy However we often have bits that we don't want pruned, when you decide to not be pruned you are taken from the vine and you start to whither.

Cliff2 · Dec 24, 2006

I am wondering if you really think that you can become perferct.

I had a person indicate to me that we must overcome as Christ overcame for us to be "Sons of God" and hence have eteranl life.

I see a little problem with such a statement. First I am yet to see a person who even comes close to overcoming as Christ did.

It becomes a performance based gospel. How good we are and not on how the death of Chirst and His spilt blood saves us.

Cliff2 · Dec 24, 2006

This Jesus is a lair and I might as well throw away my Bible and walk away, because this says that I can overcome as He overcaome.
But I do not believe Jesus is not a liar and that what He says here is true and that I can overcome as He overcame and that I will sit in His throne as He is set down with the Father in His throne.

Do you believe the above quote is true or not?

It is from the same person as my original concern is from.

I had a person indicate to me that we must overcome as Christ overcame for us to be "Sons of God" and hence have eteranl life.

capnator · Dec 24, 2006

In the same way that you are saved by faith, you are perfected by faith.

You cannot save yourself by works, you cannot perfect yourself by works.

Cliff2 · Dec 25, 2006

It is true that we are never going to get perfect by works.

OntheDL · Dec 25, 2006

Cliff2 said:
I am wondering if you really think that you can become perferct.

I had a person indicate to me that we must overcome as Christ overcame for us to be "Sons of God" and hence have eteranl life.

I see a little problem with such a statement. First I am yet to see a person who even comes close to overcoming as Christ did.

It becomes a performance based gospel. How good we are and not on how the death of Chirst and His spilt blood saves us.

What does the bible say? Be ye perfect EVEN (as much) as you Father who is heaven is perfect?

Be holy for I AM holy.

Perfection means perfect obedience.

Have you ever tried to be perfect? If you have, you will know what it takes. It takes total surrender of your will at all times.

It doesn't mean you can't fall. But every failure is a lesson to learn what not to do next time. And learn and grow we shall continueously.

Perfect obedience is what God requires from His people throughout the ages. The covenant of Grace which was ratified at Christ's death ensures us that we don't have to do it by our own power (which we can't anyway, that's why the old covenant was flawed Heb 8, Heb 10). He promises us to empower us. But He will not force us to make us holy and perfect against our will.

When the church is tried and purified in fire and become that pure gold: perfect reflection of Christ character, Christ shall return to receive His bride.

"Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of the Saviour shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim His own. It is the privilege of every Christian, not only to look for, but to hasten, the coming of our Lord. Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel! Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come." Maranatha chapter104 {Mar 112.5}

Doesn't the bible say the harvest shall come when the wheats turn golden and the tares turn black?

The gold is the pure/perfect faith.

None can enter into the kingdom of God who has not been transformed into the perfect likeness of Christ's image.

If such person is allowed to enter into heaven, not only he/she will be miserable, also the sin and rebelion will rise up again. That God will not allow to happen.

His justice demands perfection. Christ in full human nature with dependence on the Father power fully satisfied the demands of the law. We must follow His example to overcome all sins.

He that overcomes and endures to the end, the same is saved.

The teaching of empowered victorious living is unique and crucial doctrine of Adventism. Let me know if this makes sense.

Jon0388g · Dec 25, 2006

I fully believe in this doctrine. The Bible is clear.

I must admit that I understand why its so hard to swallow for so many people, and most outright refuse it. Every - every time we consciously sin it is like a thorn in your side, knowing that we are faaaarrrrr away from perfection as the Lord requires, and on top of that knowing that probation is almost up. When time runs out, what if I am still slipping up???

Jon

Adventtruth · Dec 25, 2006

OntheDL said:
What does the bible say? Be ye perfect EVEN (as much) as you Father who is heaven is perfect?

Be holy for I AM holy.

Perfection means perfect obedience.

Have you ever tried to be perfect? If you have, you will know what it takes. It takes total surrender of your will at all times.

It doesn't mean you can't fall. But every failure is a lesson to learn what not to do next time. And learn and grow we shall continueously.

Perfect obedience is what God requires from His people throughout the ages. The covenant of Grace which was ratified at Christ's death ensures us that we don't have to do it by our own power (which we can't anyway, that's why the old covenant was flawed Heb 8, Heb 10). He promises us to empower us. But He will not force us to make us holy and perfect against our will.

When the church is tried and purified in fire and become that pure gold: perfect reflection of Christ character, Christ shall return to receive His bride.

"Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of the Saviour shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim His own. It is the privilege of every Christian, not only to look for, but to hasten, the coming of our Lord. Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel! Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come." Maranatha chapter104 {Mar 112.5}

Doesn't the bible say the harvest shall come when the wheats turn golden and the tares turn black?

The gold is the pure/perfect faith.

None can enter into the kingdom of God who has not been transformed into the perfect likeness of Christ's image.

If such person is allowed to enter into heaven, not only he/she will be miserable, also the sin and rebelion will rise up again. That God will not allow to happen.

His justice demands perfection. Christ in full human nature with dependence on the Father power fully satisfied the demands of the law. We must follow His example to overcome all sins.

He that overcomes and endures to the end, the same is saved.

The teaching of empowered victorious living is unique and crucial doctrine of Adventism. Let me know if this makes sense.

Just wondering how you would understand this passage.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Also show me scripture for this statement of EGW.

"Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of the Saviour shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim His own."

-AT

OntheDL · Dec 25, 2006

Adventtruth said:
Just wondering how you would understand this passage.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Also show me scripture for this statement of EGW.

"Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of the Saviour shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim His own."

-AT

I gave an example before...when a baby is born, he/she can not walk or speak, but the doctor says the baby is perfect. Because the baby is doing what's supposed to.

If we look at a tree, it's always perfect. It might be a young tree that's a few feet off the ground and bears no fruits. But it's perfect because it's growing according to its design.

When we are perfect, we are in perfect harmony with the will of God if we surrender our will and let the holy spirit lead us.

And that christian walk is a life-long process. A tree only stops growing when it starts dying. As long as we are still living, the purpose is yet being fulfilled.

When we take our eyes off Jesus, we are ready to fall. So our perfect standings reply on the empowering holy spirit. It will never be to a point we can boast about our perfection.

But the bible says He will not allow us to be tempted beyond we are able to resist. So what excuse do we have to still sin? Can we do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us? Having victory over sin is not one of all things. Christ not only freed us from the guilt of sin. He freed us from the power of sin.

Doesn't Romans 6 say when we are born again, we are a new creation? My question is have we allowed the old sinful self to die yet?

Christ is the auther and finisher of our walk. He is able to finish what He started: the character transformation to the point we reflect His image.

Who's greater? He who sanctifies us or he who wants us to remain in sin?

EGW portraited the desire of ages. Not ours but the Redeemer's desire to receive His bride home.

Only when the fruits are rippen, the sickle shall thrust into the earth. Only when the wheat is bountiful in its golden bearing, the harvest shall come.

Adventtruth · Dec 26, 2006

OntheDL said:
I gave an example before...when a baby is born, he/she can not walk or speak, but the doctor says the baby is perfect. Because the baby is doing what's supposed to.

If we look at a tree, it's always perfect. It might be a young tree that's a few feet off the ground and bears no fruits. But it's perfect because it's growing according to its design.

When we are perfect, we are in perfect harmony with the will of God if we surrender our will and let the holy spirit lead us.

And that christian walk is a life-long process. A tree only stops growing when it starts dying. As long as we are still living, the purpose is yet being fulfilled.

When we take our eyes off Jesus, we are ready to fall. So our perfect standings reply on the empowering holy spirit. It will never be to a point we can boast about our perfection.

But the bible says He will not allow us to be tempted beyond we are able to resist. So what excuse do we have to still sin? Can we do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us? Having victory over sin is not one of all things. Christ not only freed us from the guilt of sin. He freed us from the power of sin.

Doesn't Romans 6 say when we are born again, we are a new creation? My question is have we allowed the old sinful self to die yet?

Christ is the auther and finisher of our walk. He is able to finish what He started: the character transformation to the point we reflect His image.

Who's greater? He who sanctifies us or he who wants us to remain in sin?

EGW portraited the desire of ages. Not ours but the Redeemer's desire to receive His bride home.

Only when the fruits are rippen, the sickle shall thrust into the earth. Only when the wheat is bountiful in its golden bearing, the harvest shall come.

If we say we are bible believing people only, then kindly give scripture to prove your point please. Otherwise your claims are meaningless.

-AT

Adventtruth · Dec 26, 2006

capnator said:
1 sam 2:2 [There is] none holy as the LORD: for [there is] none beside thee: neither [is there] any rock like our God.

Only God is holy, Only God is perfect.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

and yet we are told to be holy. How?

2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Pet 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Wow! in the same way that we are given salvation, we are given the divine nature! Not saying we are God but we contain God. Holiness(what god is) is given to us.

Don't focus on trying to be good! Put your energy in seeking to abide in Christ. Or maybe just allowing Christ to abide in us. But remember to love God is to obey God.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We bear fruit while in the vine... in our own effort there is no fruit. Actually it's better than that, we bear MUCH fruit in the vine, irrespective of how fruitful you think you could be. Also note this

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Father perfects us! We don't do it, all we do is choose to stay in the vine and be perfected(pruned).... we are HIS workmanship, anyone else's work is rubbish, a withered branch outside of the vine.

Sounds easy However we often have bits that we don't want pruned, when you decide to not be pruned you are taken from the vine and you start to whither.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Your perfection is a done deal as long as you continue to treasure Christ above all and everything. Thats the good news of the gospel...God is the Gospel!

-AT

Jon0388g · Dec 26, 2006

Adventtruth said:
Just wondering how you would understand this passage.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

If anyone ever did say "we have no sin", then they are a liar because "all have sinned." Simple. Does this automatically mean that we cannot stop sinning?

Also show me scripture for this statement of EGW.

"Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of the Saviour shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim His own."

-AT

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present Himself to the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless." Ephesians 5:25-27

Note, we are 'holy and blameless' at Christ's coming. Who does the perfecting:

"I in them, and thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved Me." John 17:23

Jon

Adventtruth · Dec 26, 2006

Jon...I've not time to give a full reply now to your posting but will when my company leaves. You have some serious mis-understanding about the book of 1John and perfecting of the saints. I will get back to you later.

Gal 3

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

-AT

Jon0388g · Dec 26, 2006

Adventtruth said:
Jon...I've not time to give a full reply now to your posting but will when my company leaves. You have some serious mis-understanding about the book of 1John and perfecting of the saints. I will get back to you later.

Gal 3

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

-AT

You are so sure of my misunderstanding yet you pull a text out of a passage concerning the Mosaic Law??

"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." Matthew 7:5

Jon

Adventtruth · Dec 26, 2006

Jon0388g said:
You are so sure of my misunderstanding yet you pull a text out of a passage concerning the Mosaic Law??

Yes you are very much misunderstood when it comes to scripture. Have you known any to stop sinning? Have you stopped sinning? You belive this because your prophet tells you. We don't have to sin but we do.

"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." Matthew 7:5

Jon

What has this scripture to do with our conversation? You used it to call me names. Thats ok. The reason I gave you the passage in Galations is to show you you are doing the samething. trying to be perfect by the flesh. Well my friend I'l tell you all day long it wont work. There will be no perfect people in the flesh who have stop sinning when Jesus comes... weather we sin a lot or a little, we are only made perfect through the perfect doing and dying of Jesus.

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present Himself to the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless." Ephesians 5:25-27

The above passage you used to show that we are made free from sin and perfected in the flesh by our efforts with the help of the Spirit.

That is not what the passage is saying Jon. If you understand justification by faith you would understand this. But you believe our works justify us...legalism

-AT

Jon0388g · Dec 27, 2006

Adventtruth said:
Yes you are very much misunderstood when it comes to scripture. Have you known any to stop sinning? Have you stopped sinning? You belive this because your prophet tells you. We don't have to sin but we do.

What has this scripture to do with our conversation? You used it to call me names. Thats ok.

I quoted that text because I was hoping you would see the character you portray in your responses when you keep repeating such judgemental comments about my understanding of Scripture.

"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise." 1 Corinthians 3:18

The reason I gave you the passage in Galations is to show you you are doing the samething. trying to be perfect by the flesh. Well my friend I'l tell you all day long it wont work. There will be no perfect people in the flesh who have stop sinning when Jesus comes... weather we sin a lot or a little, we are only made perfect through the perfect doing and dying of Jesus.

Careful of what you say, brother. Our faith is shown by our works. It is as simple as that. What do you make of this verse, "Adventtruth":

"For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10

The above passage you used to show that we are made free from sin and perfected in the flesh by our efforts with the help of the Spirit.

That is not what the passage is saying Jon. If you understand justification by faith you would understand this. But you believe our works justify us...legalism

-AT

Please do not tell me what I believe. Because if you would read my posts you would see I have repeatedly asserted there is no such thing as salvation by works alone. We are saved by grace - "otherwise grace is no longer grace" as Paul says.

"Adventtruth", do you not realise that Jesus Christ Himself expects us to stop sinning. How powerful to you believe your God is?

"Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, 'Behold, you have become well, do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.' " John 5:14

"She said, 'No one, Lord.' And Jesus said, 'I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on, sin no more.' " John 8:11

Unless of course that is another case of misunderstanding Scripture, lol.

Jon

Adventtruth · Dec 27, 2006

Jon0388g said:
I quoted that text because I was hoping you would see the character you portray in your responses when you keep repeating such judgemental comments about my understanding of Scripture.

Well if you were not so law and works focused in your explanation of the gospel I would not say anything about your understanding.

Careful of what you say, brother. Our faith is shown by our works. It is as simple as that. What do you make of this verse, "Adventtruth":

When are you going to learn the gospel Jon. Jesus did it all for you. He has already purchased your salvation. When are you going to rest in His works?

[/quote]"For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10[/quote]

Now if you are trusting God alone and not works Jon you have nothing to worry about do you. I'm glad I don't have to worry about someone going through my old garbage. My God judges accordign to grace. Your god judges according to law... I believe you call it the IJ. so a question for you Jon...have you done the whole law??? You know if you are under law you have to do the whole law don't you?

Oh yes Jon...at the Judgement seat of Christ, the saints reward will be a reward based not on merit, but on grace. Good works will not be seen as the cause of salvation Jon but as the fruit of grace and trusting in Christ alone for salvation therefore they will be seen as proof of true savaing faith.

Please do not tell me what I believe. Because if you would read my posts you would see I have repeatedly asserted there is no such thing as salvation by works alone. We are saved by grace - "otherwise grace is no longer grace" as Paul says.

Yes I read your postings...and they are a mixed bag of theology...blending Justification and holiness into one false gospel that say they both save.

"Adventtruth", do you not realise that Jesus Christ Himself expects us to stop sinning. How powerful to you believe your God is?

So why do you make it about you? Its about Jesus.

"Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, 'Behold, you have become well, do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.' " John 5:14
"
She said, 'No one, Lord.' And Jesus said, 'I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on, sin no more.' " John 8:11
Unless of course that is another case of misunderstanding Scripture, lol.
Jon￹FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT="

So do you think she went sinless for the rest of her life?? I tthink not!

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

When are you going to make it about Jesus and not yourself...thats not the gospel Jon.

-AT

OntheDL · Dec 28, 2006

Adventtruth said:
If we say we are bible believing people only, then kindly give scripture to prove your point please. Otherwise your claims are meaningless.

-AT

That's fine. I think I have quoted enough scriptures. In my opinion, it isn't something that's difficult to understand.

I've stated what I believe to be the truth. It's not my job to convince anyone. Mine is done.

Jon0388g · Dec 28, 2006

Adventtruth said:
When are you going to learn the gospel Jon. Jesus did it all for you. He has already purchased your salvation. When are you going to rest in His works?

It amazes me how you insist upon your understanding of the Gospel, yet you believe you need not worry about your earthly conduct. If Paul could speak to you, I'm sure he'd say something along the lines of:

"for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified." Romans 2:13

"For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10

Now if you are trusting God alone and not works Jon you have nothing to worry about do you. [/quote]

Amen.

I'm glad I don't have to worry about someone going through my old garbage.

But, "Adventtruth," the Bible and Jesus Christ Himself says that every man will give account for his deeds, just as 2 Corinthians 5:10 says. You cannot disregard plain Scripture on the basis that its too hard to swallow.

My God judges accordign to grace.

Those who are saved, yes.

Your god judges according to law... I believe you call it the IJ.

You are correct. My God does judge according to the Ten Commandments, as my Bible plainly states.

"....and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law," Romans 2:12

And, how many have sinned, "Adventtruth"?

"for ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God."Romans 3:23

"So speak and act as those who area to be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12

Hard as it is to accept, "Adventtruth", we are all judged according to the Ten Commandments - whether we are condemned by it (the Law of death), or saved by Christ's obedience to it (the Law of liberty), we 'establish the Law.'

You are correct that I call the judgemental of the saints the IJ. Am I correct in labelling your belief as stemming from 'once saved, always saved'?

so a question for you Jon...have you done the whole law??? You know if you are under law you have to do the whole law don't you?

I know that if I depend on Christ, the 'author and perfector' of my faith, through Him, "I can do all things."

Oh yes Jon...at the Judgement seat of Christ, the saints reward will be a reward based not on merit,

Amen....

but on grace. Good works will not be seen as the cause of salvation Jon

Amen....

but as the fruit of grace and trusting in Christ alone for salvation therefore they will be seen as proof of true savaing faith.

Amen! Where's the problem?

Yes I read your postings...and they are a mixed bag of theology...blending Justification and holiness into one false gospel that say they both save.

*Shakes head*

Accepting Jesus' sacrifice, believe that He was resurrected, and you will be saved. Works do not save.

So do you think she went sinless for the rest of her life?? I tthink not!

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

When are you going to make it about Jesus and not yourself...thats not the gospel Jon.

-AT

"Adventtruth", you very slyly avoided the question. Jesus commanded the woman to go her way, and to stop sinning. This is not about whether she did or didn't. The fact is, is that Jesus Himself commanded her to stop. If it was impossible to achieve, He would not have told her to do so.

So, please answer the question. Do you feel it is beyond God's power to have Christ transform your character into a perfect mirror image of Himself, here on earth? Are we saved from sin, or in sin?

Jon

Jon0388g · Dec 28, 2006

Double post.

How to become perfect.

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