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I don't see any relevant differences. Everything he writes reeks of Calvinism.You don't have to reply to this Mark.
I'm understanding why you couldn't get what I was writing to you.
From the above, I see that you're not a real calvinist.
I don't know how you came up with your beliefs, but they DO tend toward calvinism....
There are differences because of how he words ideas.I don't see any relevant differences. Everything he writes reeks of Calvinism.
Most theologians have a few minor differences at least. But I see no major differences here.
James 3:1Calvinists seem to have a lot of guts - on that point I'm inclined to hand it to them. There are 100 billion souls at stake since creation, and their teaching potentially discourages evangelism. If they are wrong, they will have to answer to God. I don't have that much courage. If I were a Calvinist, I'd probably keep it to myself.
Well, let's hope it's courage on their part. The other possibility, of course, is presumptuous theological arrogance.
I think I have come to understand the Calvinist view quite well from all the discussions here and also youtube. The thing is they mean when God decree the elect for salvation God includes all the evangelisation to this plan. If God didn't decree evangelisation none would be elect. But since God decrees it the elect come to salvation through evangelisation. Those who aren't of the elect won't receive the message. This is what I get from Calvinists. It's not that I agree, but I understand the logic.James 3:1
1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
There really would be no purpose in evangelization.
Also, it discourages some from coming to God and they just sit and
wait patiently for some kind of sign.
True enough, but the pitfall remains. If they are wrong, they may have wrongfully discouraged some potential evangelists.I think have come to understand the Calvinist view quite well from all the discussions here and also youtube. The thing is they mean when God decree the elect for salvation God includes all the evangelisation to this plan. If God didn't decree evangelisation none would be elect. But since God decrees it the elect come to salvation through evangelisation. Those who aren't of the elect won't receive the message. This is what I get from Calvinists. It's not that I agree, but I understand the logic.
From experience Calvinism was very damaging to my faith, as I thought it was true. But thank God (excuse me my dear Calvinist brothers and sisters) it wasn't.True enough, but the pitfall remains. If they are wrong, they may have wrongfully discouraged some potential evangelists.
Right. It could be very depressing to believe that God is the quintessential narcissist preoccupied only with His own glory even at the expense of His children's welfare. Heck, even having such a human father would be depressing enough.From experience Calvinism was very damaging to my faith, as I thought it was true. But thank God (excuse me my dear Calvinist brothers and sisters) it wasn't.
I'm not saying it's damaging to everyone, but to me all joy being a Christian went away.
I noticed that you did not respond to my critiques on Calvinist proof text verses - that was probably a big ask (time consuming?). I appreciate your response via ther 3 points.1. Mine is a lot more straighforward than that. John 1 says everything was made by him. God is therefore 1st cause. He created, therefore he determined everything subsequent to that creation.
2. Ephesians 2 follows it, with "not of the will of man".
3. Calvinism does not deny that people assign themselves to either category. But it does say that the one category, the fallen, is default. Their assignment is proof of it. The other category, the regenerated, assign themselves too, in obedience, but that too is proof of their assignment. But this whole point takes a strange turn away from the basis for the whole question. They are not assigned to a category by God, as such. The names given to the categories are by the assignation by God before the foundation of the world. They are not assigned by God to the category as such, I say, because they are CREATED by God for that purpose, (among whatever other purposes he sees fit to use them for).
Why is that?Calvinists seem to have a lot of guts - on that point I'm inclined to hand it to them. There are 100 billion souls at stake since creation, and their teaching potentially discourages evangelism.
That's not the God of the Bible.If they are wrong, they will have to answer to God. I don't have that much courage. If I were a Calvinist, I'd probably keep it to myself.
That's not the God of the Bible.Well, let's hope it's courage on their part. The other possibility, of course, is presumptuous theological arrogance.
My experience has been that my verses are never replied to, or very rarely,I noticed that you did not respond to my critiques on Calvinist proof text verses - that was probably a big ask (time consuming?). I appreciate your response via ther 3 points.
- As God, although he could determine everything man does not mean He did. Someone termed this type of thinking as "No fault religion" - as how does one fault man if God pre-determines every man's actions (which Calvin declared). To the preselected elect, How does God have a heartfelt relationship with a puppet. In terms of judgement: I don't fault my dog for pooping in the house when there is no means to go outside for an extended period - so why does God punish what the Reformed term the 'Totally Depraved''? Pertaining to 'first cause', Its frequently not a matter of circumstance: Constrasting Job and Judas: Job was a man who loved God and acted in integrity under dire circumstances which appeared as God killing his loved ones and causing him extreme pain although Job had served God faithfully - whereas in good times Judas betrayed Jesus for a pitance - here circumstances (i.e. first cause) did not dicatate man's action - character did! Job was not perfect - only Jesus was.
- "Not of the will of man" does not necessarily mean that God excludes man's will as we see all the directives in the Bible. I agree that per scripture, God directs the actions of the king - I suppose that is in response to prayer (1 Timothy 2:1-6). Jesus saugh cooperation fromHis disciples as we see the miracles they witnessed and how strongly He criticized them from time to time. God deos not force anyone to do anything - Job learned the hard way.
- Allthough you say "Calvinism does not deny that people assign themselves to either category" - Calvin teaches a pre-birth favoritism and malignity. Reformed faith (based upon Calvin's teaching (which constructs the "Total Depravity" and "Irresistable Grace" tenants) to say only a few are enabled to respond to the light of the Gospel. Again "Total Depravity" assigns all men to Hell" - and "Irresistable Grace" cancels that assignment for a lucky few. Mark 16:16 makes no distinction, just come believing. Calvinist's say that only the predestined can come believing - that;s there catch 22. In all his lawyerly mental gymnastics and much writing, Calvin seemes to forget God desires all to be savved (1 Timothy 2:4).
This is just a nice way of the reformed to understand why evangelization would be necessary.I think I have come to understand the Calvinist view quite well from all the discussions here and also youtube. The thing is they mean when God decree the elect for salvation God includes all the evangelisation to this plan. If God didn't decree evangelisation none would be elect. But since God decrees it the elect come to salvation through evangelisation. Those who aren't of the elect won't receive the message. This is what I get from Calvinists. It's not that I agree, but I understand the logic.
Why? Will any of God's elections fail? That contradicts Calvinism. You're not making any sense.Why is that?
The elect are brought in by hearing the gospel.
Not knowing who they are, we must take the gospel to the whole world.
Huh? I didn't get you.That's not the God of the Bible.
That's not the God of the Bible.
For Calvinists who believes that God determines all things - to the unfortunate "Totally Depraved" that are not graced with "Irresistablr Grace" it is too bad, so sad., The quoted portions are their terms. Per Calvin, some are predestined from birth to eternal torment.You don't have to reply to this Mark.
I'm understanding why you couldn't get what I was writing to you.
From the above, I see that you're not a real calvinist.
I don't know how you came up with your beliefs, but they DO tend toward calvinism....
You're not orthodox either - so it makes posting a little difficult.
I'm going to make some comments on your post, but I'm not expecting a reply.
This is re your list above:
1. Everything was made by God. God is most definitely the first cause.
He created the entire universe. Then He planned a nice planet for us.
Then He prepared it and placed us on it.
This does NOT mean that He, thus, determined everything that would happen to those on the earth -mankind.
God set in place a system which science acknowledges...all those physics laws we all know a tiny bit about. We must
work within those laws.
2. Ephesians 2: NOT OF THE WILL OF MAN. This simply means that man is not saved by his own works, or his own plan, but by the plan of God.
God is indeed sovereign and we must be saved through HIS plan of salvation, which He has kindly shown to us.
3. All of Christianity believes that the fallen nature is by default.
We are created for good works Eph 2:9 and this from the creation of the world.
No, because God uses means to accomplish his purposes, and he will see to it that the gospel is taken to the whole world.Why? Will any of God's elections fail?
You don't believe in anything supernatural.Huh? I didn't get you.
This is just a nice way of the reformed to understand why evangelization would be necessary.
That is a reasonable question.Why? Will any of God's elections fail? That contradicts Calvinism. You're not making any sense.
Exactly my point. If God is going to take care of it, a typical Calvinist might as well abstain from evangelism.No, because God uses means to accomplish his purposes, and he will see to it that the gospel is taken to the whole world.
No, my point is not your point.Exactly my point. If God is going to take care of it, a typical Calvinist might as well abstain from evangelism.
Reflects a failure to understand the supernatural God of the Bible.Like it or not, Calvinism provides fertile ground for sprouting evangelistic indifference.
Then, let's say for the sake of argument, that I'm not representing Calvinism, nor even Reformed Doctrine. I see the following in your arguments, and so will once again attempt to show what is wrong with them, this time from simple logic, since neither of us accepts the use of Scripture texts the other has drawn on for our earlier statements:You don't have to reply to this Mark.
I'm understanding why you couldn't get what I was writing to you.
From the above, I see that you're not a real calvinist.
I don't know how you came up with your beliefs, but they DO tend toward calvinism....
You're not orthodox either - so it makes posting a little difficult.
I'm going to make some comments on your post, but I'm not expecting a reply.
This is re your list above:
1. Everything was made by God. God is most definitely the first cause.
He created the entire universe. Then He planned a nice planet for us.
Then He prepared it and placed us on it.
This does NOT mean that He, thus, determined everything that would happen to those on the earth -mankind.
God set in place a system which science acknowledges...all those physics laws we all know a tiny bit about. We must
work within those laws.
2. Ephesians 2: NOT OF THE WILL OF MAN. This simply means that man is not saved by his own works, or his own plan, but by the plan of God.
God is indeed sovereign and we must be saved through HIS plan of salvation, which He has kindly shown to us.
3. All of Christianity believes that the fallen nature is by default.
We are created for good works Eph 2:9 and this from the creation of the world.
Non-responsive. You're just dancing around a valid point. Nobody's denying that Calvinists CAN evangelize. The question is whether they might be tempted to feel less urgency about it.No, my point is not your point.
My point presents secondary causes (means) used by God to accomplish his purposes; e.g., bringing in the elect through evangelization.
You deny the use of evanglization.
Reflects a failure to understand the supernatural God of the Bible.
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