How to approach atheists

AndersenKC · Nov 16, 2013

forGod1 said:
Atheists say things like there was space before time.. it says in the Bible that on judgement no one can deny creation. This means they know and are just tirelessly convincing themselves they're right.

Tirelessly convincing themselves that they can divide themselves by zero. Meaning pretend they don't actually exist.

QueSeraSera · Nov 16, 2013

writtenword said:
Why are liberals more qualified to witness to atheists? That makes no sense. And what's with the assumption that a converted atheist would become a moderate Christian at best?

Because atheist tend to be more liberal.

So it does make sense.

They also tend to be more educated. So do the more liberal Christians.

And whats with the rating the "at best ' Christian ?

Is that scriptural?

Lollerskates · Nov 16, 2013

Ok well can we agree there is a such thing as a politically conservative, [insert spiritual degree here] Christian, and a spiritually conservative, [insert political degree here] Christian? I tend to cringe when I hear people insult [spiritually] conservative Christians, or even [politically] conservative Christians. Anyone here can read my past post and see how I get reamed for being spiritually conservative, but I am also a physicist, and a political independent. Clearly [and perhaps in this instance arrogantly,] I do not consider myself less educated or in intellectual competition with anyone.

So, just who (and what) are the intellectual invalids (to exaggerate subtle subtleties here?)

AndersenKC · Nov 16, 2013

Sibara said:
Saying "moderate Christian at best" seems to imply that there's a hierarchy. That conservatives are "better" than moderates who are "better" than liberals. (A just so we're clear, we're talking spiritual categories here, not political.) Sorry, I don't buy that.

And if you can't see why liberals can better relate to atheists, then I would hazard a guess that you don't have much luck with atheists either.

Here's an example -- the conservative Christian throwing out straw-man arguments. Clue: this does not work on people of reason.

Ok, you just threw a wrench in one of the big scientific reasons I think atheists is so flawed in their cognitive thinking. When an atheist tells you that you cease to exist after you die, they are breaking a scientific law. And for atheism to be true is mathematically impossible. That is not a straw man argument. That is fact. You can't just force something to disappear.

writtenword · Nov 16, 2013

No, let me try this again... 'at best' was there to mean 'at most,' as in, the biggest change we could ever expect is for them to move a few inches down the spectrum.

Thanks for hazarded guess, but not so much. It's nice that you jump to conclusions about my effectiveness based on what you perceived I said. One of my dearest atheist friends is very intrigued by my willingness to go "all in" and be a strong charismatic. We discuss everything from politics to science to finance, and before I told him about my faith, he was often impressed by my intellect. The night he found out I'm a creationist, he was literally stunned speechless.

Many of my atheist friends have admitted they respect my convictions because of how devoutly I live them out. Last Christmas, I even gave one of them a Bible as a stocking stuffer and he agreed it to keep it in his bedroom. A few weeks ago, he showed it to me while we were Skyping. It's very slow going. They need baby steps. But it can be done.

If a liberal/moderate Christian can make an impact on the atheists in their life, the more the merrier. It's unfair to say that only one kind of Christian can do something.

writtenword · Nov 16, 2013

Lollerskates said:
Ok well can we agree there is a such thing as a politically conservative, [insert spiritual degree here] Christian, and a spiritually conservative, [insert political degree here] Christian? I tend to cringe when I hear people insult [spiritually] conservative Christians, or even [politically] conservative Christians. Anyone here can read my past post and see how I get reamed for being spiritually conservative, but I am also a physicist, and a political independent. Clearly [and perhaps in this instance arrogantly,] I do not consider myself less educated or in intellectual competition with anyone.

So, just who (and what) are the intellectual invalids (to exaggerate subtle subtleties here?)

I don't know why the political thing was ever brought up. I know a lot of unbelievers who are more politically "right" than me.

writtenword · Nov 16, 2013

It's incredible how quickly people are misunderstood online. My comment about going "all in" had nothing to do with enthusiasm. It was in reference to embracing the fundamental viewpoint on every issue (i.e. 6-day creation).

You assume my friend was "turned off" by my confession and it was "not a good thing" for me, because, frankly, you're hoping he was turned off. You can't imagine him feeling any other way. We had a long talk that night, and he was very intrigued. He'd been repeatedly told (even from other Christians) that there was no such thing as an educated creationist, because everyone knows the educated Christians are the liberal ones. When he realized he was looking at a paradox, he was shocked. I get that a lot, but honestly I get it from Christians more than I get it from nonbelievers.

I sense this discussion isn't going anywhere. Everything I say is twisted to mean the worst. I'm quite sure the response to this will be more condescending reassurances that it's cute I try to witness when I don't know what I'm doing.

You guys have a good night. I'm talking to an atheist on facebook right now, and it's going a lot better than this.

AndersenKC · Nov 19, 2013

Ok so, I was browsing the Physical Science forum and I come upon this thread
http://www.christianforums.com/t7787603/

Why didn't God prevent the typhoon from hitting the Philippines?

And what do I find? A painful to read thread full of the most dreaded and hateful rhetoric towards our God. I also found a bunch of disrespectful, presumptuous and belittling posts from the atheists there. I really wish there was a crackdown on this forum. Christians need a safe place to talk about science without the blasting of atheist garbage.
All it does is create doubt and dissension.

KWCrazy · Nov 19, 2013

You see a lot of disrespectful, belittling posts from atheists.
They think they're smarter than you.
They think they're better educated than you.
They think religion is for the weak minded and insecure.
They are called "fools" in Psalms 14:1 for a reason.

A fool blasphemes a God he claims doesn't exist. Why would an intelligent person lower themselves to mocking a non-existent entity?

Atheists are liars at heart- lying to themselves every time they say "There is no God" because like any of us they have a conscience and assuredly the Lord is convicting them in their hearts. They can react by lashing out irrationally, as many do, spewing epithets at God and ridiculing all who believe in Him, but the weight of their own sin must be crushing.

A person with a PhD in the culinary arts is better educated than a biology major with a masters degree. Education can be tracked and measured. Learning goes on for a lifetime (hopefully). Education can't get you to Heaven. Only faith can.

Intelligence can also be measured. It can be observed as well. I've seen a few intelligent atheists who could construct logical arguments to support their positions, but they are the exception. Mostly, we experience "bomb throwing" wanna-be know-it-all's who live in a world of delusion and think that by running around saying, "I don't believe, I don't believe" they will be seen as intelligent. To the contrary. Intelligence and knowledge is better demonstrated than proclaimed, and I've been spectacularly unimpressed by the divisive and disrespectful nature of the atheists who post on this site.

jjust19 · Nov 19, 2013

Atheists are a fact of life. If anything, we need to show them the love and respect all people deserve. I know it's hard to witness to them, especially when we have people like the WBC and cultist groups (who can't even use proper English to boot) denigrating Christianity and all it holds dear. In saying that, be the light that shines on the hill-top. Bless your enemies, love the Atheists, pray for them and let God change their hearts. Above all, don't shove religion down their throats, and don't pick and make one sin seem worse than the others (i.e. homosexuality). If it were easier to determine who were true Christian and who aren't, then I can honestly say that the world would perceive Christians in a totally different way.

Jesus never gave up on anyone, and I'm not going to either.

The Fire Rises · Nov 21, 2013

OP, here is something I'd like to share with you that I've learned in my experience. Firstly, not everyone who claims to be an atheist is actually an atheist, rather they are really anti-theist. They are against the idea of God, they are against the idea of Christianity, and they are against the idea of religion. But they do not take atheism to its logical conclusion. Here are just a few examples to illustrate what I'm talking about. These are not supposed to be evidences or "proofs" for God or Christianity, they are simply questions that I hope we all ponder, regardless of what we believe.

1. If there is no God, the big questions remain unanswered, so how do we answer the following questions: Why is there something rather than nothing? Why is there conscious, intelligent life on this planet, and is there any meaning to this life? If there is meaning, what kind of meaning and how is it found? Does human history lead anywhere, or is it all in vain since death is merely the end? How do you come to understand good and evil, right and wrong without a transcendent signifier? If these concepts are merely social constructions, or human opinions, whose opinion does one trust in determining what is good or bad, right or wrong?

2. If we reject the existence of God, we are left with a crisis of meaning, so why dont we see more atheists like Jean Paul Sartre, or Friedrich Nietzsche, or Michel Foucault? These three philosophers, who also embraced atheism, recognized that in the absence of God, there was no transcendent meaning beyond ones own self-interests, pleasures, or tastes. The crisis of atheistic meaninglessness is depicted in Sartres book Nausea. Without God, there is a crisis of meaning, and these three thinkers, among others, show us a world of just stuff, thrown out into space and time, going nowhere, meaning nothing.

3. If there is no God, the problems of evil and suffering are in no way solved, so where is the hope of redemption, or meaning for those who suffer? Suffering is just as tragic, if not more so, without God because there is no hope of ultimate justice, or of the suffering being rendered meaningful or transcendent, redemptive or redeemable. It might be true that there is no God to blame now, but neither is there a God to reach out to for strength, transcendent meaning, or comfort. Why would we seek the alleviation of suffering without objective morality grounded in a God of justice?

4. If there is no God, we dont make sense, so how do we explain human longings and desire for the transcendent? How do we even explain human questions for meaning and purpose, or inner thoughts like, why do I feel unfulfilled or empty? Why do we hunger for the spiritual, and how do we explain these longings if nothing can exist beyond the material world?

I have yet to meet an atheist who can give any sort of substantive response to these questions. The "serious" atheists (as I refer to them) such as Sartre and Foucalt, readily admitted that "Yes, if what we say is true, there is no meaning, there is no good, there is no evil, there is nothing, everything is meaningless". Modern day "atheists" don't want to accept that message of doom and gloom - and who can blame them? They want to live a life without God, but they still want to hold onto things such as hope, love, meaning, and goodness that are ONLY possible with God. It's a sad irony.

ezeric · Nov 21, 2013

Hey brother FireRises, some good thoughts...actually well thought out - thank you.

I never realized your point 2; about the philosophers you mention, and they really get back to Solomon (during his crisis as I call it) where he comes to the conclusion that everything is meaningless without GOD.

If our DAD is 'love' and 'joy' and 'wisdom' and 'power' and 'peace' and 'goodness' then without those things we have got nothing. The way of Peace (Shalom) they do not know, the scriptures say in Romans 3:17

I actually agree with some of the points atheist make, as many of them are real angry and I feel its displaced (but they don't know it). They are angry at GOD (or HIS People) but really many of them have 'church' back-grounds and have been steeped in 'christian religion' but not on GRACE and real Power...so they rebel against all the religion thrown at them, from seeing parents and preacher 'talk about it' but never really live it.

Paul said this: (and I think this is the missing link)

"my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
1 Cor 2:4

I think many of them have only seen words - not power.
So, their faith is shallow, only on man's words.

Bless you brother, and where have you been? Haven't seen you for a while?

-eric

The Fire Rises · Nov 21, 2013

Thanks, ezeric. It's good to see you too. I've been incredibly busy with commitments regarding college studies, work, family, friends, etc. Life tends to get hectic sometimes as I'm sure you're well aware. But I've been incredibly blessed, and I have no reason at all to complain. Anyways, it's good to be back, at least for the foreseeable future.

You make a good point by quoting Paul. It is ultimately up to God to mold the hearts and minds of those who resist His free gift of grace. With that said though, we still have a vital part to play.

I would argue that another obstacle blocking the Christian message is the current condition of our culture. Christianity (and most religious/spiritual beliefs) are portrayed as wishful thinking. Opponents rely heavily on rhetoric and false information to distort what Christianity is really saying, essentially setting up straw men and knocking them down, as if that disproves anything at all.

As J. Gresham Machen put it:
"False ideas are the greatest obstacles to the reception of the gospel. We may preach with all the fervor of a reformer and yet succeed only in winning a straggler here and there, if we permit the whole collective thought of the nation or of the world to be controlled by ideas which, by the resistless force of logic, prevent Christianity from being regarded as anything more than a harmless delusion."

I think as Christians we have a duty to be well-informed and well-versed in both what our faith teaches and what others SAY our faith teaches. After all, if you do not understand your opponent's arguments than you do not entirely understand your own.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 29, 2013

The Fire Rises said:
OP, here is something I'd like to share with you that I've learned in my experience. Firstly, not everyone who claims to be an atheist is actually an atheist, rather they are really anti-theist. They are against the idea of God, they are against the idea of Christianity, and they are against the idea of religion. But they do not take atheism to its logical conclusion. Here are just a few examples to illustrate what I'm talking about. These are not supposed to be evidences or "proofs" for God or Christianity, they are simply questions that I hope we all ponder, regardless of what we believe.

1. If there is no God, the big questions remain unanswered, so how do we answer the following questions: Why is there something rather than nothing? Why is there conscious, intelligent life on this planet, and is there any meaning to this life? If there is meaning, what kind of meaning and how is it found? Does human history lead anywhere, or is it all in vain since death is merely the end? How do you come to understand good and evil, right and wrong without a transcendent signifier? If these concepts are merely social constructions, or human opinions, whose opinion does one trust in determining what is good or bad, right or wrong?

2. If we reject the existence of God, we are left with a crisis of meaning, so why dont we see more atheists like Jean Paul Sartre, or Friedrich Nietzsche, or Michel Foucault? These three philosophers, who also embraced atheism, recognized that in the absence of God, there was no transcendent meaning beyond ones own self-interests, pleasures, or tastes. The crisis of atheistic meaninglessness is depicted in Sartres book Nausea. Without God, there is a crisis of meaning, and these three thinkers, among others, show us a world of just stuff, thrown out into space and time, going nowhere, meaning nothing.

3. If there is no God, the problems of evil and suffering are in no way solved, so where is the hope of redemption, or meaning for those who suffer? Suffering is just as tragic, if not more so, without God because there is no hope of ultimate justice, or of the suffering being rendered meaningful or transcendent, redemptive or redeemable. It might be true that there is no God to blame now, but neither is there a God to reach out to for strength, transcendent meaning, or comfort. Why would we seek the alleviation of suffering without objective morality grounded in a God of justice?

4. If there is no God, we dont make sense, so how do we explain human longings and desire for the transcendent? How do we even explain human questions for meaning and purpose, or inner thoughts like, why do I feel unfulfilled or empty? Why do we hunger for the spiritual, and how do we explain these longings if nothing can exist beyond the material world?

I have yet to meet an atheist who can give any sort of substantive response to these questions. The "serious" atheists (as I refer to them) such as Sartre and Foucalt, readily admitted that "Yes, if what we say is true, there is no meaning, there is no good, there is no evil, there is nothing, everything is meaningless". Modern day "atheists" don't want to accept that message of doom and gloom - and who can blame them? They want to live a life without God, but they still want to hold onto things such as hope, love, meaning, and goodness that are ONLY possible with God. It's a sad irony.

ezeric said:
Hey brother FireRises, some good thoughts...actually well thought out - thank you.

I never realized your point 2; about the philosophers you mention, and they really get back to Solomon (during his crisis as I call it) where he comes to the conclusion that everything is meaningless without GOD.

If our DAD is 'love' and 'joy' and 'wisdom' and 'power' and 'peace' and 'goodness' then without those things we have got nothing. The way of Peace (Shalom) they do not know, the scriptures say in Romans 3:17

I actually agree with some of the points atheist make, as many of them are real angry and I feel its displaced (but they don't know it). They are angry at GOD (or HIS People) but really many of them have 'church' back-grounds and have been steeped in 'christian religion' but not on GRACE and real Power...so they rebel against all the religion thrown at them, from seeing parents and preacher 'talk about it' but never really live it.

Paul said this: (and I think this is the missing link)

"my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
1 Cor 2:4

I think many of them have only seen words - not power.
So, their faith is shallow, only on man's words.

Bless you brother, and where have you been? Haven't seen you for a while?

-eric

The Fire Rises said:
Thanks, ezeric. It's good to see you too. I've been incredibly busy with commitments regarding college studies, work, family, friends, etc. Life tends to get hectic sometimes as I'm sure you're well aware. But I've been incredibly blessed, and I have no reason at all to complain. Anyways, it's good to be back, at least for the foreseeable future.

You make a good point by quoting Paul. It is ultimately up to God to mold the hearts and minds of those who resist His free gift of grace. With that said though, we still have a vital part to play.

I would argue that another obstacle blocking the Christian message is the current condition of our culture. Christianity (and most religious/spiritual beliefs) are portrayed as wishful thinking. Opponents rely heavily on rhetoric and false information to distort what Christianity is really saying, essentially setting up straw men and knocking them down, as if that disproves anything at all.

As J. Gresham Machen put it:
"False ideas are the greatest obstacles to the reception of the gospel. We may preach with all the fervor of a reformer and yet succeed only in winning a straggler here and there, if we permit the whole collective thought of the nation or of the world to be controlled by ideas which, by the resistless force of logic, prevent Christianity from being regarded as anything more than a harmless delusion."

I think as Christians we have a duty to be well-informed and well-versed in both what our faith teaches and what others SAY our faith teaches. After all, if you do not understand your opponent's arguments than you do not entirely understand your own.

One must also remember that a lot of atheists are ex-Christians and probably know the Bible almost as well as we do....just thought I would throw that in there........

The Fire Rises · Nov 29, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
One must also remember that a lot of atheists are ex-Christians and probably know the Bible almost as well as we do....just thought I would throw that in there........

Good point - all the more incentive for Christians to be well-versed in the Bible. (I'd personally recommend the works of Norman L. Geisler, N.T. Wright and Gary Habermas when studying the New Testament)

gideon123 · Nov 29, 2013

quick thoughts here.

first ... AVOID Christian paranoia. way too many Christians are paranoid about atheists. why, exactly? church pastors need to stop painting these people as if they are the Devil incarnate. they are mostly people who are trying to view the world from a very logical framework. so try to remember that, and keep a positive persepctive.

next .. if an atheist says to you "God is dead" - then just smile and say "So you DO believe He was alive, then??". that will probably catch them unawares. and you can finish with this thought ... "well I wouldn't count Him out yet - unless you were at the ER when His pulse stopped". Hahahaha!

Keep smiling. dont take people so seriously. if you show a sense of humor and an ability to avoid a dogmatic attitude, atheists will talk to you more.

Gideon

The Fire Rises · Nov 29, 2013

gideon123 said:
quick thoughts here.

first ... AVOID Christian paranoia. way too many Christians are paranoid about atheists. why, exactly? church pastors need to stop painting these people as if they are the Devil incarnate. they are mostly people who are trying to view the world from a very logical framework. so try to remember that, and keep a positive persepctive.

next .. if an atheist says to you "God is dead" - then just smile and say "So you DO believe He was alive, then??". that will probably catch them unawares. and you can finish with this thought ... "well I wouldn't count Him out yet - unless you were at the ER when His pulse stopped". Hahahaha!

Keep smiling. dont take people so seriously. if you show a sense of humor and an ability to avoid a dogmatic attitude, atheists will talk to you more.

Gideon

I agree that we should be more positive, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to simply "blow off" atheistic/skeptical arguments against Christianity. If we don't take their arguments seriously, they have no reason to take our arguments seriously either. If I were an atheist/agnostic (which I used to be), I would want to be treated with dignity and respect and not simply laughed at. (I'm not saying you do this, I'm just saying I don't think that's a good approach)

To be blunt, I would have to flat out disagree with the notion that atheism is a "very logical framework". On the contrary, atheism is illogical and self-defeating. Serious atheistic thinkers of the 20th century and beyond such as Nietzsch and Foucault readily admitted this. I would recommend becoming familiar with some of their works, because they can prove very useful when talking to self-proclaimed atheists. As I said in a previous post, many people who say that they are atheists are really just anti-theists. New atheists today such as Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Hawking have even admitted to this in their works.

gideon123 · Nov 29, 2013

i would agree that it's important to work out whether a person is an atheist or an anti-theist. and if the latter, then why? because the reasons may be highly personal, ant not that much related to logic at all.

i don't think we need to "blow them off". but i do think it's better to be far less serious and dogmatic when talking to people, esp. those who already believe that Christians are on a self-delusional binge. or similar thoughts

Gideon

The Fire Rises · Nov 29, 2013

gideon123 said:
i would agree that it's important to work out whether a person is an atheist or an anti-theist. and if the latter, then why? because the reasons may be highly personal, ant not that much related to logic at all.

i don't think we need to "blow them off". but i do think it's better to be far less serious and dogmatic when talking to people, esp. those who already believe that Christians are on a self-delusional binge. or similar thoughts

Gideon

Well said Gideon, I definitely agree with that.

While we're talking about very serious matters here, we certainly shouldn't be doom and gloom about everything - Christianity's message is one of peace, freedom and hope.

I've actually noticed that during televised debates between atheists and Christians, the Christians always seem to be enjoying the occasion with a smile on their face, genuinely excited about the arguments they have to share with the audience, while the opposing side comes off as rather grim, and often very uncomfortable as the debate continues (but of course a lot depends on the speaker, their style of speaking and the type of debate)

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