Ben,
My statement: Can you find a text that says that which would exclude all those other rising from the dead.
Your response:
There are to "resurrections"; as Rev20 says, "Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the first resurrection --- over these the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of Christ and God and shall reign with Him for a thousand years." Rev20:6
The second resurrection is for unbelievers, to judgment and condemnation.
there is ONLY ONE general, bodily resurrection which occurs in the last day, the Second coming of Christ.
The "first resurrection" refered to in Rev 20 is the spiritual resurrection all believers experience in baptism. Rom 6 again. That is the first resurrection, whereby we enter into Christ's Kingdom by faith and will be saved through faith. That faith prevents believers from being condemned in that last judgment or the physical one. If you are IN Christ, then the second death, eternal separation has no power over you.
Those with Christ are reigning with Him right now. This is the Kingdom, it has come. It came on Jesus' first day of ministery. Repent, for the Kingdom is at hand.
Col1:17 says "He is first-born from the dead", meaning that "He has authority even over death".
He is not Lord over unbelievers.
You better believe He has authority over death. All authority was given to Him. He conquered death by death. Trampling down death by His own death and resurrection. Death is no more. The condemnation of Adam is no longer in effect. It actually never was since God promised the Messiah at the Garden exist.
Christ is Lord OVER ALL. Is He not the Sovereign Lord? Did God not place all things IN Him, and did He not reconcile all things to Himself, Col 1:15-20.
My Statement: If faith enrolls life, then one must assume that all those arising on the last day, are being raised to eternal life by faith?
Your response:
Those in the "First Resurrection", are.
Yes, they are, but then just how do all those unbeleivers rise from the dead. You stated that LIFE is only granted by or through faith? If you change your mind, just how do they get raised, and why are they different than beleivers. If unbelievers have some other way to be raised, why did Christ need to raise believers differently?
If you disagree with that assumption, then what makes it possible for all of mankind to rise from the dead?
Those raised second, are to be condemned.
Yes, but that does not answer the question. How are they raised. I am assuming you are not sticking to "faith grants life" anymore.
They are "raised", but they are not granted "immortality". Immortality is awarded at the Final Judgment, to the righteous --- Rom2:6-8 is clear on that.
You cannot be raised and not have immortality, eternal existance. Immortality was already awarded mankind in Gen 3:15, it just was not finally and completely fulfilled until the last day when Death is the last enemy.
Rom 2:6-8 is not clear, but vs 11 makes it quite clear that there is no partiality with God. All of mankind will be immortal, they are because Christ arose from the grace and conquered death.He rstored our mortal natures to immortality.
My question:How is Gen 3:19 overturned for those who will be condemned to hell, which is not physical death, but spiritual death, the second death?
Your comment:
I think I just answered that.
You are evading it. You have not yet made any direct statement how the unbeliever can be raised from the dead. You say and agree that they are being raised, but nothing about the cause or how.
It does in Rom11:32, and 5:18.
then you now agree with me. That is precisely why the unbelievers can arise from the dead. God had mercy upon all of mankind, he saved all mankind from death. He gave to all men justification unto life. How plain can it be, Ben. Yet you strolled all around it, and maybe still do.
They dynamic is clear --- reconcilliation is TO all things, but for men it conditions on FAITH.
Why contradict yourself within the same sentence? To be a beleiver an unbeliever must believe, have faith, repent, which is reconciliation of man to God, not the other way around which is what Christ did for mankind. Faith is moot without life. I Cor 15:14-19 again. you cannot get around the fact that Christ restored mankind to life. From mortal to immortal. He recinded the death penalty against mankind inherited through Adam.
Faith has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is all of God, not by the will of man, nor the flesh, but of God.
Paul specifically said: "He has reconciled you to God through His fleshly body, if indeed you CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from the Hope of the Gospel (Jesus)." Col1:21-23
But don't take part of one verse and add it to another. Vs 21 is a continuation of the set of verses just before. All man were alienated but He has reconciled, in the body of His flesh (can only be physical reconciliation) for the purpose to present you as beleivers holy, blameless in His Sight, IF indeed you continue in faith. The reconcilation came before faith could take effect and have any meaning. This aligns with all the rest, especially I Cor 15:14-19.
Reconcilliation, is conditioned on faith --- no faith, no reconcilliation.
Yes, the reconciliation that is initiated by man by faith. But again, not even possible unless Christ first reconciled all things to Himself through the Cross, death and His resurrection.
Eternal life is the consequence of faith; condemnation is the consequence of unbelief. 1Jn5:10.
Not at all. Eternal life WITH CHRIST IS THE CONSEQUENCE OF FAITH. and condemnation of unbelief can ONLY happen if that individual has life. Faith does not grant life, physcial life. You will find no text that says so. The problem you are having with these texts that simply say, as above. 'Believe and I will give you eternal life, is that the ultimate goal of Christ is to restore mankind to the ability and capabilty to respond with a consequence. Mankind is restored to life, all of mankind so each and every soul can give an answer to that active call and answer of God to all men to repent. We, that is, all of mankind will give an answer to that universal call, to each and every soul. Made possible ONLY because Christ redeemed mankind. Heaven and hell can not exist if Christ had not come to redeem mankind. Man would have remained under the condemnation of Adam, death, dust to dust, Gen 3:19.
How do you "repeal" what Paul said in Rom6? We are EITHER slaves to sin, OR slaves to God and righteousness
Why the need to recind. It is ONLY possible because of what he stated in Rom 5:18-19. Man needs first to be freed from the bondage to death. He needs life, in order to respond. In order to make a choice of whether he desires to be a slave to sin or the flesh, or to Christ. Under Adam you are not even a slave to either. You are simply dead and convicted. You are dust.
Genesis 3:19 only says "you will return to dust". Rev20 speaks of two resurrections --- one to life, the "Rapture", the other to judgment and condemnation.
Unless dust has life in itself you can stick to your understanding. But Gen also says that God created man from the dust of the earth, THEN breathed life into him and he became a living soul. God is the creator of life, God through Christ is the ONLY one and ONLY way to restore life to man. There are only ONE resurrection in Rev 20. The spiritual one, the first resurrection, as I explained above, occurs at baptism. All of mankind is judged at the Judgement. All will be raised, Christ is indeed the first born of the dead, He is the conqueror over death, period.
My statement: This is the condemnation of mankind to death. If that is not changed, defeated, then all men will remain dead.
Your Response: Without receiving Christ, men are dead in their sins.
Well, yes, but meaningless unless man has physical life first. Man is dead in his own sins without recieving Christ. But all men were dead under the judgment of Adam, one sin, by one man, you inherited death. It would not matter how perfect you were, nor how sinful you were, death was your inevitability. You would not be condemned by anything you did, but only on the basis of what Adam did.
My statement: God cannot judge a pile of dust, the result of the condemnation of mankind. Your response:
He will be raised for judgment; he still has his sins, which were not washed away by Jesus' blood through his faith.
He CANNOT be raised unless given life. He has no sins whatsoever, if Christ did not raise him from the dead. It does not matter what sins, or how many, or how grevious they might be. He was condemned by Adam, not his own sins. That is why God had mercy upon mankind. He created us free for each to make that choice. Thus He freed mankind from the bondage to death, the death of Adam, in order that each could stand in judgment for what HE did in the flesh. Hell does not exist in your theology, unless man, the unbeliever has life. You cannot just say, because the Bible says he is raised the last day, without having a reason, a cause that allows him to be raised. That reason is Christ. He reconciled the world, He gave life to mankind. As in Adam we all die, so also in Christ we all shall be made alive. There is absolutely no text anywhere to be found that can recind that statement. Faith does not grant physical life. It grants spiritual life, spiritual union and communion with God. It was possible for Adam to have communion with God because he was alive physically. But his sin, resulted in death, man fell to being a mortal. A mortal cannot inherit eternal life no matter how much faith, nor as the Bible constantly states, man cannot save himself. How can a mortal being give himself life.
THe key to what you said, is "in Christ"; only those who believe and receive Him, are "in Christ".[]/quote] NO, the key is that by faith we live IN Christ. We are not restored to life in Christ. We need physical life before we can live IN Christ. Physical before spiritual. I Cor 15:46.
Paul said: "If any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creation; the old has passed (is passing) away, behold all has become new (new things have come)."
But the context is all about our spiritual existance. Living IN Christ, not being made alive in Christ. If you want to hold to your understanding here, then not all men die either. Only those that on the other side of the equation have life in Christ, namely believers, are the only ones to die from Adam. So how do all those others die, from whom or how, or do we have most of humanity still alive from the beginning, having never died?
Cont to part II.....