How Rampant Do You Think Mental Disease Is On These Forums?

bhsmte said:

In general, I would agree.

Behaviors are what determines psychological disorders, whether someone is a believer or non believer.

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This is true no matter the agenda of the person.
The fact of the statement reveals the disorder.

So if a person has ax to grind,just the grinding is a sign of a disorder.
This is my understanding of your reply.

I just read all 9 pages. I was diagnosed with (chronic) schizophrenia in 1983. Since then I have gotten a BA in Psychology and a second separate BA in Political Science. I have posted elsewhere on this site about a number of related topics.

I often recommend the reading of "Stigma" by Erving Goffman despite its being old. Some people are discredited and some are discreditable. Some people try to pass as normal. This is what that book is about. Nowadays some people do not wish to speak of stigma so much anymore and rather discuss it as prejudice and discrimination. I am not so sure that is a good idea.

As far as "psychosis" is concerned. This means that one's reality testing equipment is not working or that one may be out of touch with reality. This could mean not knowing true from false. Not knowing real for unreal. Or, not knowing right from wrong. There is a problem with subpopulations of psychotic individuals. Psychosis usually means the person is less dangerous that the general population (less capable). But in a very very small subpopulation that gets all of the news headlines there can be dangerous individuals indeed.

There is an article "Validation of a Typology of Religious Experience and Its Relationship to the Psychotic Experience" by Robert D. Margolis & Kirk W. Elifson (Journal of Psychology and Theology, 1983) which attempts to teach people how to determine the difference between written descriptions of true religious experience, counterfeit religious experience, and psychotic experience.

People with schizophrenia make up about 1% of the general population. Think about how many people live in your city and therefore how many people with schizophrenia live in your city. Some are hospitalized once and remain healthy after discharge for the rest of their lives; some are hospitalized and never leave; some (many) are in and out of hospital for the rest of their lives. It can be very costly on health care. As many as one in five people with schizophrenia complete their suicides. You may guess which of the three groups above is most at risk.

There was a book, by Grant IIRC, which describes schizophrenia as a source of social insight. People with schizophrenia may internalize the outside conflicts of their society and develop impairments and understandings at the same time. Some internalize race conflicts, some internalize class warfare, some internalize the battle of the sexes, and some internalize the flesh versus the Spirit. The person may be disabled but not destroyed. Listening to such people and maybe even helping them develop communication skills might be a good thing. They may suffer much though.

Of course, the Bible speaks of "orderly worship" and this includes a Christian website. John Stuart Mill's "On Liberty" is a nice book. It gives arguments for free speech among assemblies and forums. Well worth reading and meditating upon. However, Mill also suggests that social experiments be freely allowed too. That may be going a bit far. How far in a free and democratic society I do not hazard to guess.

I am currently reading "Are You an Illusion?" by Mary Midgley (2014) which is in a series of books called "heresies." IIRC Peter L. Berger wrote a book (which I have yet to read) about the heretical imperative. Heresy and "hairesis" relate to choice. It is easier to say God chooses us than that we choose Him. The idea of "choice" seems to be a heresy in itself.

Albert Camus who may have sadly ended his life by suicide, seemed to teach that we often seem forced to choose between suicide and murder. We either submit or dominate. Surely a social network can allow for other types of social interactions.

In "The Social Bond" by Robert Nisbet, there are five kinds of social interactions and I am not sure if I can remember them. Exchange was one. Coercion was another. Cooperation and Conflict must have been others. Conformity must have been the fifth. How do choice and consent relate to these? Democracy? Theocracy?

BlueLightningTN said:

How rampant do you think mental disease is on these forums? And do you find it ethical that we often engage online individuals who demonstrate mental disease as if they are normal people who can think logically?

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Speaking as someone who suffers from mental ill health, I find your insinuation that we're not normal people and can't think logically to be highly offensive.

now faith said:

This is true no matter the agenda of the person.
The fact of the statement reveals the disorder.

So if a person has ax to grind,just the grinding is a sign of a disorder.
This is my understanding of your reply.

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Not sure how you concluded that from what I stated.

Again, psychological disorders or illness, is diagnosed by a persons pattern of behavior and how those behaviors match up with established criteria for the various disorders. For instance, you could look up the DSM-IV. DSM-5 criteria, to determine how one would use the criteria to diagnose someone.

LadyJaden said:

Well, I do. If you do not accept Christ to save you from your sins, you cannot be in the presence of God the Father, so you will spend eternity without his presence. THAT is a place called Hell and you choose to go there.

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That is only your personal interpretation of the Bible. Yes, many other Christians hold it, but that does not mean it is the only translation.

And your earlier response to Quackers had a bit of a paranoid edge to it.

And on the subject of people being mentally ill, I am sure that there are some that are not all there. Whether or not it is the point to being an illness I am not qualified to judge. But I could name quite a few that definitely have a problem with reality.

Having ones personal religious beliefs challenged seems to give rise to some very odd defensive actions.

BlueLightningTN said:

How rampant do you think mental disease is on these forums? And do you find it ethical that we often engage online individuals who demonstrate mental disease as if they are normal people who can think logically?

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I think large, religious-based forums such as this one tend to attract people who have mental disorders, but I don't actually know their diagnoses and I'm not qualified to pass judgment, so I treat them the same as everyone else on here. There are definitely ethical issues with this, but the alternative is to avoid forums altogether.

Strathos said:

I think people using mental illnesses as insults "you're [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], you're autistic", etc. is very offensive. Agree?

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I agree 100%.

And I think that sort of attitude just increases the stigma surrounding it.

David Brider said:

Speaking as someone who suffers from mental ill health, I find your insinuation that we're not normal people and can't think logically to be highly offensive.

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I had precisely the same reaction to the OP.

I dislike the use of 'normal' in this context anyways. Who gets to define what a "normal person" is like? There are a lot of ways for one to fit outside of society's norms - regardless of mental health.

I'm sure there are plenty of members on this forum who currently or have previously suffered from psychological disorder(s), considering the prevalence around the world. Plus as others have stated, I think that online forums probably have a higher percentage of those struggling.

But there are so many different types of mental illness and varying levels of severity, personalized symptoms, etc. Yes, there are specific problems that could make it near impossible to think/debate entirely logically. However, those symptoms in no way define the majority of people who have psychological issues.

bhsmte said:

Again, psychological disorders or illness, is diagnosed by a persons pattern of behavior and how those behaviors match up with established criteria for the various disorders. For instance, you could look up the DSM-IV. DSM-5 criteria, to determine how one would use the criteria to diagnose someone.

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I think there can be a lot more to it than simply behaviors. What about emotions, cognition, etc? There's definitely diagnostic criteria in the DSM that don't directly relate to behavior.

Or do you follow Behaviorism?

[This is not meant to be snarky.. I'm genuinely curious].

PlayWithFire said:

I think there can be a lot more to it than simply behaviors. What about emotions, cognition, etc? There's definitely diagnostic criteria in the DSM that don't directly relate to behavior.

Or do you follow Behaviorism?

[This is not meant to be snarky.. I'm genuinely curious].

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If one has certain emotions and certain cognitions specific to them, how are these not behavioral reactions? Whatever cognitive thoughts you have, typically trigger certain behaviors. Behaviors is basically the end game, of your cognitions. Over time, behavioral psychologists and cognitive psychologists have blended their theories to work together and they both have valid theories.

Wow, there are a lot of mean-spirited people here. My faith is very personal and I am commanded to share it. Quackers, you are just plain wrong about any paranoia on my part. I am secure in my beliefs. I understand people believe differently than I do and I respect them. I pray for you because you *seem* to be very hostile against believers. (I hope that I am wrong about that.) For me to even express my beliefs to you in not fruitful, but I will give it one last go.

I just know that God has made Himself obvious to me in my life and there have been times where He ministered to me. If you think that is mental illness, then you are sadly mistaken. I am perfectly sane. I just have a MOOD disorder. Paranoia is not a part of my Bipolar. I believe whole-heartedly that the Bible was inspired by God. It is not fiction. It is what I live by. I try my best to follow Christ's example and if you read about His ministry, then you will know that He is not about hate, He is about Love. I do not know if you have given the Bible a chance but I encourage you to read the book of Romans. His Grace is undeserved favor. I am a sinner. But because of Christ's work on the cross, His grace is mine.

I have decided to leave this thread because it is very hateful. I do not need hate in my life. I want love. And believe it or not, I love all of you because Christ has put love in my heart. Leaving is not a sign of resignation to any of you. It is a choice for me to seek positive conversations instead of poisonous ones. Feel free to reply to this, but I will not see it.

God bless you all. God loves you whether you believe it or not.

bhsmte said:

If one has certain emotions and certain cognitions specific to them, how are these not behavioral reactions? Whatever cognitive thoughts you have, typically trigger certain behaviors. Behaviors is basically the end game, of your cognitions. Over time, behavioral psychologists and cognitive psychologists have blended their theories to work together and they both have valid theories.

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I did not mean to imply that behavior is not a significant piece of the puzzle... I actually view it as a very important part in both diagnosis and treatment.

I just don't think it is the only piece.. I see behavior, emotion, and cognition as all distinct (albeit interrelated) parts. I think that in most cases the emotion, cognition, and behavior all play a role. Emotion and/or cognition are often the precursor(s) to behaviors, but they all can trigger each other (to varying degrees, depending on the specific situation).

I generally favor an eclectic approach (in case that wasn't obvious ).

PlayWithFire said:

I did not mean to imply that behavior is not a significant piece of the puzzle... I actually view it as a very important part in both diagnosis and treatment.

I just don't think it is the only piece.. I see behavior, emotion, and cognition as all distinct (albeit interrelated) parts. I think that in most cases the emotion, cognition, and behavior all play a role. Emotion and/or cognition are often the precursor(s) to behaviors, but they all can trigger each other (to varying degrees, depending on the specific situation).

I generally favor an eclectic approach (in case that wasn't obvious ).

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I would agree, in general.

Cognition is how we interpret and behaviors is how we typically show the cognitions we possess along with emotion. They are distinct, but also heavily related and tied together.

This is why, most diagnosis done by professionals, are derived from the behaviors related to the same. A person can lie about what they cognitively perceive, but it is much more difficult for them to hide the behaviors that come from the same.

PlayWithFire said:

I did not mean to imply that behavior is not a significant piece of the puzzle... I actually view it as a very important part in both diagnosis and treatment.

I just don't think it is the only piece.. I see behavior, emotion, and cognition as all distinct (albeit interrelated) parts. I think that in most cases the emotion, cognition, and behavior all play a role. Emotion and/or cognition are often the precursor(s) to behaviors, but they all can trigger each other (to varying degrees, depending on the specific situation).

I generally favor an eclectic approach (in case that wasn't obvious ).

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YES!!! I have to take my meds everyday to control the mood issues. But I also have to work on myself too. The meds only pull you so are up the Bipolar hole. It is my job to climb out of it. I used to be moody,judgmental, mean and stressed out all the time. Meds help 50% but the rest is my desire to change.

There is a "natural history" of evaluation and assessment. It happens in a context and follows certain procedures. Often involves observation and some history taking. Generally the diagnostic manual (I do not have DSM 5 yet) gives a list with options under each part of the list. So, say a list with A, B, C, and D. For schizophrenia is may give items under A as premorbid (before illness or active phase), items under B as active phase symptoms, and items under C as perhaps residual phase symptoms. D may give special symptoms for child onset schizophrenia. This is just an idea and it may not look like this in the actual DSM IV-TR.

For the symptoms under A there may be a list of seven symptoms and it gets checked as true if the person has four of these. Likewise for the other lists.

So, schizophrenia can be an illness exemplified by a fairly wide diversity of persons. Sometimes the symptoms can be more or sometimes less severe.

Generally to have a severe mental illness the symptoms must severely affect day-to-day living. In "The Skilled Helper" by Egan which is the Bible for the helping professions, at least IIRC 4th edition, severity is given by the following formula:

S = DUF

Or, severity equals distress x uncontrollability / unpredictability x frequency

Other illnesses have other sets of lists among which you choose which ones apply and if it meets the threshold to make a diagnosis decision.

There are also "differential diagnoses" where sometimes two illnesses do not exist together and one must decide which one it is. Sometimes two or more illnesses do exist together. Sometimes both illnesses together becomes a distinct illness.

Putting "mental disease" on a thread title is probably going to attract people who may have a mental illness diagnosis. Even those who might fear they have a possible undiagnosed illness. So this thread is probably no clue as to what happens on other threads.

Some people may come to this website to frequent the mental health area with the website and do not go elsewhere. Some people may be seeking counsel or prayer. Note also that a hospital has sick people and health professionals in it and concerned family and friends. This website may be similar to a hospital at times.

The discussion of "normal" and "abnormal" could take a thread on its own. If someone asks me to guess their IQ and I have no additional information, then the best guess is the mean or average IQ which is around 100 and it drops off dramatically as you go down below 60 or above 140. Simple definition of "normal" is thus "average."

Besides IQ, other traits can be normally distributed. Psychosis, Emotional states and traits, sexuality, and motivation might be normally distributed too.

Disability is a very broad category including physical disabilities, learning disabilities, psychiatric disorders, sensory disabilities, dementias, developmental disabilities, neurological impairments, visible and invisible disabilities, and there surely must be others that I am not recalling. Addictions, personality disorders, or whatever may be special too. Society is sometimes expected to make "accommodations" for the disabled and sometimes not. We do what is reasonable. The whole legal system is based upon the "reasonable person" (is this a legal fiction?). Or, is Jesus "the" reasonable person?

I imagine that some people looking at posts can do a mini mental status exam while reading posts. This is a face-to-face assessment. It has about 10 areas which are assessed such as memory, orientation, grooming, sensorium, etc. Sometimes, as a psychiatrically disabled person myself I do an internal or personal monitoring MMSE just to see how I would do if I were assessed.

I can also, if I wish, do a preview of a post before posting and do a personal self-assessment of how "abnormal" the post looks. If somebody were "normal" on all variables, then this person would be highly abnormal. Or faking.

When people are being assessed, they can fake good, fake bad, fake average, or fake random, and, there are ways of detecting all of these but these ways take questions and time.

Sorry, forgot to explicate what a MMSE (mini mental status exam) measures. This is general. If you suspect the person has neurological problems or dementia, then perhaps a full neuropsychological assessment (very expensive) might be in order. I was calling people up to do opinion polls at a previous job and occasionally would get someone with a spot of dementia. Still attempted surveys!

Mental Status Examination
I. General Appearance and Behaviour
II. Speech and Thought
III. Consciousness
IV. Mood and Affect
V. Perception
VI. Obsessions and Compulsions
VII. Orientation
VIII. Memory
IX. Attention and Concentration
X. Fund of General Information
XI. Intelligence
XII. Insight and Judgment
XIII. Higher Intellectual Functioning

If you have ever darkened the door of an emergency ward as a patient, you are probably aware of someone asking you questions like "What day is it today?" or, perhaps even "Who is the Prime Minister of Canada?" (Although perhaps more Canadians would know who the POTUS is than their own PM.) This assessment can be done for all people. We have good days and bad days.