how people survived ?

nvxplorer · Jun 24, 2005

And-U-Say said:
My guess, and its only a guess, is that chimps would fair very poorly in a one on one fight with a human. Agreed that they are stronger. But strength is not the only factor. I have seen, in nature shows and at zoos, chimps fighting. For better or for worse, they are really bad at it. They slap and bite and grab. But give me a good jab or roundhouse any day. I think the chimp would flee after a few well placed punches.

Yeah, you may be right. A skilled human fighter may have the advantage, but if a determined chimp ever got a hold of you, that advantage would shift. You're probably correct that a chimp would flee after being struck, but if it was cornered, I would put my money on the chimp.

HouseApe · Jun 24, 2005

b*unique said:
hmm,there is noot exactly any link between chimps and humans,is here?
anyway,if they were succesful,why change?

I think the theory is the environment changed, it became drier. Think of chimp like creatures living in large forests 5 million years ago. They live all over the forests, from one end to the other. Over some time the forests begins giving way to savanah. Now there isn't enough room for those creatures. Some are slowly forced to be able to live in the savanahs. They have to change. But the ones left behind, that still live in the now much smaller forests, don't have to change (at least not very much). So you end up with us and chimps.

i doubt that,how could bare handed people kill any huge beast?

Cut off its air supply by strangling it or stuffing something down its throat. You could also bite through its arteries. and let it bleed to death.

what about large group of gorilas?or chimps?
would people survive?

Probably not. But then thankfully, humans aren't prayed upon by large groups of gorillas and chimps. And remember that early humans didn't compete with these other primates, as they were forest dwellers.

5 lions?5 gorillas?

I discussed gorillas above. But have you ever watched lions attack other animals. Do 5 lions jump on 5 wildebeest? No, 5 of them attack only one. Why is that? 2 reasons. First there is less chance for injury and greater chance of success. So if 5 humans are walking through the savanah, and 5 lions attack, they will likely all just attack one human. The other humans will probably try to fight back, a little, but being smart, say so long to their buddy.

you see all the humanoids disapeared,why is that?we know they coexisted

I don't think anyone knows for sure, but they were probably out competed by other types of humanoids.

how homo sapiens,people looking like us,inteligent like us came about?

evolution.

did they come with tools?

Possibly, even chimpanzees use tools.

you see,i am not disputing anything..just wondering

And I'm glad you are!

And-U-Say · Jun 24, 2005

HouseApe said:
I discussed gorillas above. But have you ever watched lions attack other animals. Do 5 lions jump on 5 wildebeest? No, 5 of them attack only one. Why is that? 2 reasons. First there is less chance for injury and greater chance of success. So if 5 humans are walking through the savanah, and 5 lions attack, they will likely all just attack one human. The other humans will probably try to fight back, a little, but being smart, say so long to their buddy.

One human to the other:
"I don't have to outrun the lions, I just have to outrun YOU!"

Governed Apology Exploded · Jun 24, 2005

b*unique said:
so the first people would have to be superstrong,super fast and very inteligent,,and once they know what they're doing,they can get weaker?
it does not really look that way

why loose the fur?

What? When did I say that?
They gained intelligence and lost physical ability at around the same rate. Of course they may have been weak in the first place and simply started evolving intillegence while being able to use it to hunt things with more nutrition to support their higher energy requirements that the increased intelligence demanded. Most other apes are herbivores, I think, and early hominids probably were too.

b*unique · Jun 24, 2005

Yeliryor said:
What? When did I say that?
They gained intelligence and lost physical ability at around the same rate. Of course they may have been weak in the first place and simply started evolving intillegence while being able to use it to hunt things with more nutrition to support their higher energy requirements that the increased intelligence demanded. Most other apes are herbivores, I think, and early hominids probably were too.

all apes eat insect and small animals i think,not sure..

i see what you're saying,i am asking about the time people were weak,had loads of competition,were prey ,and had no tools,no fur,no claws,no strenght,
no speed,children developing slower and generaly weaker than any other animal,etc...

Manic Depressive Mouse · Jun 24, 2005

i see what you're saying,i am asking about the time people were weak,had loads of competition,were prey ,and had no tools,no fur,no claws,no strenght,
no speed,children developing slower and generaly weaker than any other animal,etc...

Human's never "popped" into existance so it was never a problem under the evolutionary model. We were existing and competing well before we evolved into humans, who competed even better and occupied a slightly different niche thus giving us a high degree of survivability. Our ape like ancestors would have tought us how to use all the tools and things, which we would have improved and expanded upon.

If anything this would be something the creationists would have to answer.

Nymphalidae · Jun 24, 2005

all apes eat insect and small animals i think,not sure..

i see what you're saying,i am asking about the time people were weak,had loads of competition,were prey ,and had no tools,no fur,no claws,no strenght,
no speed,children developing slower and generaly weaker than any other animal,etc..

Why do you assume our ancestors were weaker than everything else? Why do you assume we had the same amount of hair we do now? If our offspring's rate of development were detrimental to survival, we wouldn't be around now to debate about it.

Chimps hunt occasionally. The males get together and run down/corner other animals, which they then rip apart with their bare hands and teeth.

HouseApe · Jun 24, 2005

b*unique said:
all apes eat insect and small animals i think,not sure..

i see what you're saying,i am asking about the time people were weak,had loads of competition,were prey ,and had no tools,no fur,no claws,no strenght,
no speed,children developing slower and generaly weaker than any other animal,etc...

I think what everyone here is trying to tell you that this time never existed.

Kripost · Jun 24, 2005

b*unique said:
so the first people would have to be superstrong,super fast and very inteligent,,and once they know what they're doing,they can get weaker?
it does not really look that way

why loose the fur?

Not quite... Think of it as a trade off. More powerful brains require more protein and more energy. Given that there exist only a limited amount of resources, it would be difficult to have both.

Fur can be either an advantage or disadvantage, depending on the enviroment. Shorter fur would facilitate heat loss, for example.

b*unique said:
all apes eat insect and small animals i think,not sure..

Gorillas are herbivores, while Chimpanzees are omnivores, and apparently, one of their favourite food are monkeys, not exactly small animals. Interestingly, when chimps hunt, they do so in groups.

b*unique said:
i see what you're saying,i am asking about the time people were weak,had loads of competition,were prey ,and had no tools,no fur,no claws,no strenght,
no speed,children developing slower and generaly weaker than any other animal,etc...

The problem is in assuming that the changes came within one or a few generations. It would have been more gradual.

Also, what humans lack in speed they make up for that in stamina. Some bushmen chase down antelopes until their prey collapses from exhaustion.

b*unique · Jun 24, 2005

HouseApe said:
I think what everyone here is trying to tell you that this time never existed.

ok,tell me the story of homo sapiens

you see,I am not a creationist at all all I do is ask questions i have no answers for

b*unique · Jun 24, 2005

Nymphalidae said:
Why do you assume our ancestors were weaker than everything else? Why do you assume we had the same amount of hair we do now? If our offspring's rate of development were detrimental to survival, we wouldn't be around now to debate about it.

Chimps hunt occasionally. The males get together and run down/corner other animals, which they then rip apart with their bare hands and teeth.

look at the fosils

chimps are much stronger and faster than any human,and have stronger jaw as well,right?

HouseApe · Jun 24, 2005

b*unique said:
ok,tell me the story of homo sapiens

you see,I am not a creationist at all all I do is ask questions i have no answers for

You will find all the info you will want a www.talkorigins.org

It is a long, confusing story. And I have mucho respect for someone who really desires to understand.

b*unique · Jun 24, 2005

Kripost said:
Not quite... Think of it as a trade off. More powerful brains require more protein and more energy. Given that there exist only a limited amount of resources, it would be difficult to have both.

so how would that work?
why are we getting stronger,bigger?
why loose fur?and have hair growing so long,it could be dangerous,if people did not manage it?

Gorillas are herbivores, while Chimpanzees are omnivores, and apparently, one of their favourite food are monkeys, not exactly small animals. Interestingly, when chimps hunt, they do so in groups.

don't gorillas eat insects?

chimps could hunt people any time ...that was one of my questions

The problem is in assuming that the changes came within one or a few generations. It would have been more gradual.

yes,is there any evidence of this?
I am interested in modern humans only

Also, what humans lack in speed they make up for that in stamina. Some bushmen chase down antelopes until their prey collapses from exhaustion.

yes,but that does not help when humans are the pray ,because predators are faster,right?

nvxplorer · Jun 24, 2005

b*unique said:
yes,is there any evidence of this?
I am interested in modern humans only

Are you curious about how homo sapiens evolved, or the social/technological advances made by homo sapiens?

b*unique · Jun 24, 2005

nvxplorer said:
Are you curious about how homo sapiens evolved, or the social/technological advances made by homo sapiens?

anything

Nymphalidae · Jun 24, 2005

look at the fosils

Neanderthals were stockier and more heavily muscled than our ancestors, yet they died out and our ancestors survived.

b*unique · Jun 24, 2005

Nymphalidae said:
Neanderthals were stockier and more heavily muscled than our ancestors, yet they died out and our ancestors survived.

that is what i find surprising,why did they disapear?
they were quite inteligent,and stronger

Loudmouth · Jun 24, 2005

b*unique said:
look at the fosils

chimps are much stronger and faster than any human,and have stronger jaw as well,right?

No, humans are much faster than chimps. We also have one advantage that outweighs all other disadvantages, our endurance. This is perhaps the story you are after.

A human has the ability to chase after a large animal until that animal collapses due to heat exhaustion. When this happens it is a simple matter of bashing it over the head with a rock. We get this endurance from our metabolism and our ability to sweat. This is probably why we have less body hair, to increase the cooling effects of sweat.

As our intelligence grew we learned how to use fire. This allowed early humans to burn down whole prairies and then eat the animals that were killed by the fire. Much later, we learned how to domesticate animals which did away with the whole fire and chasing methods.

But perhaps the biggest jump in human evolution took place along shorelines where food was plentiful and the weather was consistently warm.

Lilandra · Jun 24, 2005

evolution doesn't consciously reward any species for being strong or smart. It is purposeless.

There are more factors to the equation than just fitness, there is also environment, ability to adapt. Would a Nile crocodile adapt if the river became inhospitable? Some of the more plucky ones would move to other rivers but most would die w/o an apology from nature. It is one of the fittest predators on the planet but is still has biological requirements.

Neaderthal similarly is not entitled to survival based on its intelligenge and strength. People speculate that Sapiens is better able to adapt to changing environments as evidenced by the fact that it occupies more parts of the globe than other species except microrganisms. Neaderthal perhaps did not migrate with the Mammoths South during the Ice Age winters.

Life is very fluid, not static and easy to pin down.

b*unique said:
that is what i find surprising,why did they disapear?
they were quite inteligent,and stronger

Koz · Jun 24, 2005

Has anyone seen that old Discovery channel program about Neanderthals? It was basically a movie about a tribe of Neanderthals trying to survive but eventually modern man appeared. There was one scene where a Neanderthal was fishing using his bare hands, trying to grab the fish from a pond, later on he came upon a modern man using a spear to fish. In another scene, a modern human and a Neanderthal got into a fight over a killed animal, the Neanderthal just charged the human, only to be jumped by another hiding behind a tree. Neanderthals tried to copy modern human ways, but the were too stupid and just died out from the competition.

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