How old is the universe????

TheBear · Jun 6, 2005

I take God at His Word

Click to expand...

If scripture were so plain and simple to understand, we all would be in agreement, on everything scriptural. There would not be thousands of different and differing Christian denominations.

I think a better statement would be, "I take God at His Word, as I understand it."

The Lady Kate · Jun 6, 2005

shernren said:
I would doubt if God would allow life to emerge elsewhere, or if He would allow it to grow to sentience. There would be the massive theological problem of how God would be incarnated into a different species, and the relationship this would have with the redemptive work He has already carried out for Homo Sapiens.

What's the problem? If God can take human form and appear to us as Jesus Christ, why couldn't/wouldn't he appear in another world, another time, as a Klingon/Wookie/Ewok/Vogon/Little Green Alien or whatever, and give them the same message?

If there is sentient life on other worlds (and I don't see why not), then don't they deserve a chance at salvation as much as we do?

(and why do I get the sinking feeling I'm going to get flamed for this?)

LewisWildermuth · Jun 6, 2005

shernren said:
I would doubt if God would allow life to emerge elsewhere, or if He would allow it to grow to sentience. There would be the massive theological problem of how God would be incarnated into a different species, and the relationship this would have with the redemptive work He has already carried out for Homo Sapiens.

I do not see how this is a problem with Christianity which believes in a personal God that interacts with each of His creations on a personal level.

If you had a God that was impersonal and laid blanket rules for everyone and did not see fit to interact personally with creation you might have a problem, but such a religion already has massive issues theologically with Christianity anyway.

shernren · Jun 7, 2005

Now, let's have a fun discussion about extraterrestrial sentience. At least side A won't accuse side B of subverting the foundations of Christianity, and side B won't accuse side A of making God a liar if their arguments are logically consistent.

First I would have the issue of how many images of God can you have anyway? XD I mean, we read in Genesis that man was created in God's image and whether you take that as a literal or figurative image to me this talks about humanity's unique role as God's representative in this physical world. If there were a second sentient species what would their role be? Are they made in the image of God as well? If not, how did they come to have a yearning for God?

The second reason is this passage from Hebrews:
[BIBLE]Hebrews 10:1-10[/BIBLE]

Now, I know this is taking it waaayyyyy out of context XD but wouldn't passages like this preclude Jesus actually "re-incarnating" for another race?

Actually, come to think of it, this whole issue of extraterrestrial sentience is a relevant question when put in these terms: Can angels repent? ...

depthdeception · Jun 8, 2005

The Lady Kate said:
What's the problem? If God can take human form and appear to us as Jesus Christ, why couldn't/wouldn't he appear in another world, another time, as a Klingon/Wookie/Ewok/Vogon/Little Green Alien or whatever, and give them the same message?

If there is sentient life on other worlds (and I don't see why not), then don't they deserve a chance at salvation as much as we do?

(and why do I get the sinking feeling I'm going to get flamed for this?)

If you get flamed, email me, cuz I totally have your back. To continue your thought, I would argue that it is in the very nature of God that God would become incarnate to other and every other civilization in the universe. I also do not see how this would be a theological problem: Why do we assume that the Incarnation is limited to a particularity? I personally believe, as all Chrisitians do, that the Incarnation fo Christ has universal, cosmic implications. However, I believe the word "universal" in its proper sense, as applied to the entire universe. As Christ, the eternal Logos of GOd, is not bound by time/space, but rather enters into it, I think it is quite possible that Christ could be Incarnate to an infinite number of civilization across the universe (or even multiple universes...) and this fact would in no way detract from the significance of his particularity to the human race.

Remus · Jun 8, 2005

shernren said:
First I would have the issue of how many images of God can you have anyway? XD I mean, we read in Genesis that man was created in God's image and whether you take that as a literal or figurative image

I believe that we are created in the literal, spiritual image of God and not the literal physical image of God.

If there were a second sentient species what would their role be? Are they made in the image of God as well? If not, how did they come to have a yearning for God?

Is sentience what makes us yearn for Him? I wonder... if sentient life were found on another planet, would they have a soul? If they did, would they need salvation? I think this is the crux of the problem. Would Jesus have to go to their planet and die for their sins as well?

depthdeception · Jun 9, 2005

Remus said:
Is sentience what makes us yearn for Him? I wonder... if sentient life were found on another planet, would they have a soul? If they did, would they need salvation? I think this is the crux of the problem. Would Jesus have to go to their planet and die for their sins as well?

Good question. I would say that if other beings on other planets had a "soul" (I am not speaking in terms of dualism, but rather according to organizational complexity), then yes, Jesus would "go to their planet and die for their sins" or whatever form of atonement that would be necessary for their depravity. To save is the nature of God.

The Lady Kate · Jun 9, 2005

depthdeception said:
If you get flamed, email me, cuz I totally have your back. To continue your thought, I would argue that it is in the very nature of God that God would become incarnate to other and every other civilization in the universe.

The only problem I see with that is that God didn't even become incarnate to every civilization on this planet...the Chinese, the Native Americans, the African Bushmen, the Pygmies of Pago-Pago... none of them got first-hand experience of God incarnate.

Perhaps God in his wisdom knew that one incarnation per planet would be enough...and word-of-mouth would do the rest...

I also do not see how this would be a theological problem: Why do we assume that the Incarnation is limited to a particularity? I personally believe, as all Chrisitians do, that the Incarnation fo Christ has universal, cosmic implications. However, I believe the word "universal" in its proper sense, as applied to the entire universe. As Christ, the eternal Logos of GOd, is not bound by time/space, but rather enters into it, I think it is quite possible that Christ could be Incarnate to an infinite number of civilization across the universe (or even multiple universes...) and this fact would in no way detract from the significance of his particularity to the human race.

I'll even go further than that... even if there are thousands, even millions, of different intelligent races in this very large universe, God could be incarnate to an infinite number of them... even simultaneously.

As you said, God is not bound by time or space, so if anyone can be in two places at once, it's God. (or 3 places, or ten places, or a million places...)

Is it possible that while God, in the form of Jesus Christ, was here on Earth teaching the apostles, at the same time, in a galaxy far, far, away...a race of three-headed lizard people were being taught about peace and love from a very special three-headed lizard person...

(Ok, now I know I'm going to get flamed for that...)

depthdeception · Jun 9, 2005

The Lady Kate said:
Is it possible that while God, in the form of Jesus Christ, was here on Earth teaching the apostles, at the same time, in a galaxy far, far, away...a race of three-headed lizard people were being taught about peace and love from a very special three-headed lizard person...

To answer your question, I would say that not only is it possible, but if there are other planets with intelligent, sentient life, then it is also a necessity. One of my seminary profs once said, "If the Incarnation didn't happen, it should have." I really like this statement, for it highlights the truth that God is about revealing Godself. As the incarnation is not only a temporal, but is more importantly an eternal reality, it is no difficulty to believe that Christ could be universally Incarnate to an infinite number of planets in an infinite number of universes at exactly the same "time." This is really no more than Christians already profess by asserting that Christ's Atonement is universally accessible to all people at all times, even to those who came "before" Christ became flesh and dwelt among humanity.

(Ok, now I know I'm going to get flamed for that...)

Don't worry. If you get flamed, I still got your back!

Dexx · Jun 10, 2005

Heres one example of astronomical measurement and age determination:
On February 23, 1987, a supernova was observed and has since been labelled SN 1987A. About eight months after the explosion was observed, reflections from the explosion were seen in a distant gas cloud ring that circled the supernova. The reason the reflected light was delayed eight months was that it took time for the light to travel from the supernova to the distant gas clouds and then to reflect from there back to earth. We can conclude that it took about eight months--or 0.66 years-- to journey from the supernova to the gas ring. Knowing the time it took to reach the ring, and knowing the speed of light, simple trigonometry can calculate the distance as 169,000 light years.

Some say that light was faster long ago. But if light was faster when the supernova occured, then the distance from the star to the gas cloud was greater than 0.66 light years. And, subsequently, the distance from SN1987A to Earth is greater than 169,000 light years.

Some say that God created the universe giving it the appearance of age. They would argue that SN1987A is only thousands of years old. But that means that much of what we see in the night sky never actually happened - that God is making it up as time goes by.

Delta One · Jun 10, 2005

depthdeception,

Good question. I would say that if other beings on other planets had a "soul" (I am not speaking in terms of dualism, but rather according to organizational complexity), then yes, Jesus would "go to their planet and die for their sins" or whatever form of atonement that would be necessary for their depravity. To save is the nature of God.

What would make you think that these 'other beings' did indeed sin??

Delta One · Jun 10, 2005

Hi there Maccie,

But I do wish I could meet you in 50 years time and see if you still believe all this!!

As I said before somewhere either at the end or in the middle of my last post to you, this theory is not the last word on the topic from creationists and like all man made theories it is fallible and subject to change. Youll find that most of the evidence for evolution that you believe will have been scrapped and new evidences been brought up. In fact, almost all of the evidence from the Scopes Trial has been scrapped by evolutionists themselves they no longer believe it!

I too would be very surprised if this is the best theory on the subject that creationists can come up with it has, however, given creationists an area for further research to come up with better solutions to answer the evidence.

Unfortunately I won't be here - but I will know for myself then, anyway!!

You never know, thanks to modern science and technology we are living for longer, and you just might be alive then. Although this is good for those involved, its not too good for Australia as a whole where it is predicted that in 2020 (or some date around there) for every young person there will be 2 old people (theyve defined old as being over 50 years old). How the economy will hold up is anyones guess, especially with the baby boomers starting to enter retirement age.

gluadys · Jun 10, 2005

Delta One said:
Hi there Maccie,

Youll find that most of the evidence for evolution that you believe will have been scrapped and new evidences been brought up. In fact, almost all of the evidence from the Scopes Trial has been scrapped by evolutionists themselves they no longer believe it![/font]

I am curious about this statement. Are you sure it is the evidence that has been scrapped or is it some aspects of the theory of evolution? Could you give us an example of something presented at the Scopes trial which has been scrapped?

Perhaps you are thinking of Piltdown Man? It hadn't yet been revealed as a hoax, so would have been considered evidence at the time, though, as we now know, it was not.

depthdeception · Jun 10, 2005

Delta One said:
What would make you think that these 'other beings' did indeed sin??

As per my suggestion that God, by nature, is self-revealing, I believe God would become Incarnate even if sin had not occurred.

How old is the universe????

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