How much has Adventism changed?

RC_NewProtestants said:

Because the leadership of the organization are generally those who rose to the position in the previous generation. So the leadership is often behind the local churches themselves. If you have ever been to one of the constinuancy meetings where they elect the conference officers you know how removed those people are from what the local people think. They are nominated by a large committee that is generally mainly conference hierarchy and employees. The constituents vote but have practically know real knowledge of who they are voting for and generally not even with a choice.

So the organization is set up to be self sustaining of those in the employ of the organization. It is the problem of any bureaucracy but that does not mean that the bureaucracy is the organization itself.

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I actually agree with you RC on this one.

RC_NewProtestants said:

Because the leadership of the organization are generally those who rose to the position in the previous generation. So the leadership is often behind the local churches themselves. If you have ever been to one of the constinuancy meetings where they elect the conference officers you know how removed those people are from what the local people think. They are nominated by a large committee that is generally mainly conference hierarchy and employees. The constituents vote but have practically know real knowledge of who they are voting for and generally not even with a choice.

So the organization is set up to be self sustaining of those in the employ of the organization. It is the problem of any bureaucracy but that does not mean that the bureaucracy is the organization itself.

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Try to tell that to a pastor who has been removed (typically asked to resign) from his post for not fully supporting the 28 fundies. I've often found it to be the case that the most conservative groups continuing to drive fundamentalism in the SDA church are people my own age, not the 'old people' of the church. In a sense it ensures that things will continue on much as they have always been.

"We shun the perception of being arrogant, and we don't want to come across as being overly exclusive, but at the same time we believe that being Seventh-day Adventists has direct bearing on our salvation; that while a believer can be saved as a Catholic, I would risk my whole spiritual life and salvation were I to leave what I am now and join any other community."

"Our understanding of the Word and of our doctrines, particularly as formulated in our 27 fundamental beliefs (all of them!) is clear, and our obligation to preach them is equally clear. There is no shift away from anything in this respect, but it is an underscoring of an additional responsibility that we have as a community, the reality of which is in direct relationship to the increase in the size of our church."

Jan Paulsen 2002

If there are winds of change on the brink of happening in SDAism, then we're still waiting for even a light breeze to begin.

In CHRIST alone...

freeindeed2 said:

If there are winds of change on the brink of happening in SDAism, then we're still waiting for even a light breeze to begin.

In CHRIST alone...

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In a lot of ways this all comes down to seeing what you want to see. Are you familar with what is happening on our college campi, at least on the western US. Do you really think that 10 years ago one of our Colleges would have put out a play like "the Red Books"? Spectrum and Adventist Today are more widely known now then any time in the 80's or 90's (spectrum anyway,don't think Atoday was around in 80's).

There is a breeze blowing.

Again, I agree that pockets have made changes (i.e., colleges, local congregations, etc.), but the institution hasn't budged a bit, and when push comes to shove, the institution flexes it's arm and prevents any real change to it.

The local breeze you may feel is just that, local. The flags at the GC aren't moving.

In CHRIST alone...

The only way to bring change is to, set up a rival orginization, compitetion is the best motovatior for change. where the money goes the denomination will follow.

RC_NewProtestants said:

As an organization the SDA church has not made any big changes. It redefines the IJ, that started in the 1980's and it has redefined the Sabbath to more the idea of a "park in time". Those are steps in the right direction, and it is incremental changes but that is going to be the only effective changes.

As I reported earlier the Valuegenesis 2 studies have shown us that the 3 least believed Adventist doctrines are EGW, The Remnant and the Sanctuary doctrine. Most of those were believed in the 7-12 graders by at best 40% and at the college level they barely registered as believed. That tells us that the SDA church is ripe for change, that it is in fact changing.

This is why it is so important that we don't just give up and leave for something else without helping the church and it's young people to change. Because frankly if they are left with only the TSDA's and their unreasonable thinking they will leave the SDA church and very likely Christianity altogether because that is what is happening in the Western world Christianity is in decline and it is because of too many years of fundamentalism, which has painted Christians as unreasonable and unloving and unacceptable of others. Non of the things that Jesus was known for.

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I see your point, and I hope that those who do choose to stay will make a difference.

icedragon101 said:

The only way to bring change is to, set up a rival orginization, compitetion is the best motovatior for change. where the money goes the denomination will follow.

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Have they ever shown a willingness to change in response to rival groups? I think their reaction usually is to burrow down even deeper into traditional beliefs and denounce those groups so that people won't even consider diverting tithe.

I think after a certain point some .orgs become too large to change... it is at that point that .orgs do become self-perpetuating and are not interested in truth or change...

Since leaving adventism, I have seen that individuals-pastors, teachers, members have changed. The SDA church itself has not changed. They still have the 28 Fundamental Beliefs.
DRL

RC_NewProtestants said:

In a lot of ways this all comes down to seeing what you want to see. Are you familar with what is happening on our college campi, at least on the western US. Do you really think that 10 years ago one of our Colleges would have put out a play like "the Red Books"? Spectrum and Adventist Today are more widely known now then any time in the 80's or 90's (spectrum anyway,don't think Atoday was around in 80's).

There is a breeze blowing.

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freeindeed2 said:

Again, I agree that pockets have made changes (i.e., colleges, local congregations, etc.), but the institution hasn't budged a bit, and when push comes to shove, the institution flexes it's arm and prevents any real change to it.

The local breeze you may feel is just that, local. The flags at the GC aren't moving.

In CHRIST alone...

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It sees truth in both your posts. But RC, you have to understand the church continues to make converts today as it did 20 years ago, as it did 40 years ago, etc. It brings them in on intoxicating milk and does NOTHING to prepare them for the massive disconnect and cognitive dissonance what results when, enthused by the eschatological propositions and the seemingly (notice it says SEEMINGLY) "deeper" awareness of the sin problem and its cure (what bes nothing more than repackaged Pharisaism IMO), they seek to study the word more deeply and come to find out the black/white all/nothing either/or literalism on which they bes lured into the fold bes nought but a foundation of shifting quicksand ready to suck them under into a vacuous void of ignorance and they FLOUNDER. They struggle trying to grasp the security they once knew coming in on Amazing Facts studies and Daniel/Revelation seminars and cannot find it. Their peers in the church -- those raised SDA -- simultaneously mock them for their naive enthusiasm and manifest every earmark of Laodicean lukewarm ennui they've been told to be on watch for and on guard against, and all the convert can think bes WHY? WHY and HOW can it be these privileged to be "raised in the truth" so wholesale fail to appreciate it???

The levels of cognitive dissonance produce abreaction and paranoia and then the converts bes prone to view -- and of course then, denounce -- things like Spectrum, etc. as the work of the devil whilst they fall apart in terror feeling their own demonic takeover: the awakening of that treacherous entity THE HUMAN MIND daring to THINK and QUESTION.

And OH how ill prepared those around them for this, let alone themselves!!!

All organizations undergo life cycles:
http://www.legacee.com/FastGrowth/OrgLifeCycle.html

So ugly when the gangrenous and decrepid refuse to die, opting instead for a long, noisy, messy, nasty, smelly decline.

ricker said:

I'm sorry if I came across sounding like progressives were not Adventists. I have studied with a "progressive" group a few times 120 miles from where I live. (they had their own Bible study). Good people.
What I meant as a Adventist in good standing is somthing like you would not be shunned, or looked down on, or passed over for church office for say, buying gas on Sabbath or eating a ham sandwich, for example.
I think I have attended 4 or 5 various SDA services in the last year and had various experiences with them. Some actually kinda good and some that left me shaking my head. To be honest the people there were always friendly and nice. I get along really well at my current church to.
Thanks for the responses and God bless! Ricker

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thanks for clarifying.... and I get your point, if it is discovered that your views are not in line with the traditional views then you are right, people will distance themselves from you.....