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Who says Jesus is responsible for the sheep? It's us believers being responsible to him.
Here’s the verse we are talking about.You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
— John 5:39-47
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
— John 6:45
The interesting thing is that scripture doesn’t say that Jesus died for goats.
Jesus gave His life for all men (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2), but the benefit is only received by those who believe in Him (which would be the sheep). That does not contradict John 10:11.
Nothing could be further from the truth. If you restrict discussion to narrow section(s) of the Bible, you can form just about any doctrine you desire. Thus I will not be told which sections of the Bible I must stick to.You have to stick with the text in question. When you jump all over, you can make the Bible say whatever you want. We are discussing John 10, and you said sheep is a metaphor for follower.
The Bible does not specifically say "Jesus died for goats" - especially in John 10. There are sections of the NT that indicate that Jesus died for believers and some sections that indicate He died for all people. (which would include "goats"). And I explained at length why that was in Post 264.You correctly quoted that Jesus said He laid down His life for the sheep. Also in John 10 we see that the sheep are given to Jesus by His Father.
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29
These are the same sheep we see in v. 11. So either Jesus died everyone, or He died for the sheep given to Him by His Father.
Okay.The Bible does not specifically say "Jesus died for goats" - especially in John 10. There are sections of the NT that indicate that Jesus died for believers and some sections that indicate He died for all people. (which would include "goats"). And I explained at length why that was in Post 264.
John 10 is Jesus's conversations with the Pharisees who later worked to crucify Him. If you restrict discussion to narrow section(s) of the Bible, you can form just about any doctrine you desire. Thus, I will not be told which sections of the Bible I must stick to.
To know that you need to know why they aren't his sheep.Here’s the verse we are talking about.
But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26
Why don’t they believe, according to Jesus?
He puts the cause right in His statement.To know that you need to know why they aren't his sheep.
Yes of course! But that is only answering one part of the question. How is that helping your case?He puts the cause right in His statement.
I’m not sure where you are seeing the deficiency.Yes of course! But that is only answering one part of the question. How is that helping your case?
Because it's answering why they didn't believe, not why they were in this situation of not believing. And without understanding the second part, we have no use of understanding the first part.I’m not sure where you are seeing the deficiency.
It’s right there in the text. The reason they dodgy believe was because they weren’t His sheep. You seem to be over-thinking this.Because it's answering why they didn't believe, not why they were in this situation of not believing. And without understanding the second part, we have no use of understanding the first part.
It's like saying they aren't believing because they are not in a position of believing. It's not telling us much, is it?
They don't believe because they are not his sheep. So far we agree.It’s right there in the text. The reason they dodgy believe was because they weren’t His sheep. You seem to be over-thinking this.
I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.They don't believe because they are not his sheep. So far we agree.
What is that telling us? Or maybe I should ask, what is that telling you?
I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
— John 10:14-15
But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:26-29
We see that His sheep were given to Him by His Father. We see that He lays down His life for His sheep. We also see that there are some who are not His sheep. We can conclude that He does not lay down His life for everyone.
So instead of actually addressing my post, you are going to ignore it and go somewhere else?Who are the sheep given to Christ by the Father?
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
— John 6:45
Jesus was punished for everyone's sin, all sin in the whole world. He took on the sin of the whole world and did this for the sake of his sheep (for whom he lay down his life), meaningly whoever believes in him.
We can conclude that reading it through John 3:16-17.
I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
— John 10:14-15
But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:26-29
Yes! And?We see that His sheep were given to Him by His Father.
Yes, and?We see that He lays down His life for His sheep.
Yes, and?We also see that there are some who are not His sheep.
It depends on what you mean. If you mean it proves limited atonement/particular redemption, you have to show where it says that.We can conclude that He does not lay down His life for everyone.
You agree that some are not His sheep, and He died for the sheep given to Him by the Father, correct?Yes! And?
Yes, and?
Yes, and?
It depends on what you mean. If you mean it proves limited atonement/particular redemption, you have to show where it says that.
Yes!You agree that some are not His sheep, and He died for the sheep given to Him by the Father, correct?
That’s different. So what did dying for His sheep accomplish?Yes!
But whom he died for and made atonement for are not the same ones. He died for his sheep, made atonement for everyone. That's what I said in my previous post.
Good Day, ZoidarI think there might be a range of meanings. But I read it this way:
For whoever has (life in a spiritual sense), to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance (eternal life); but whoever does not have (spirititual life), even what he has shall be taken away from him (both what he thinks he has here and life eternal).
— Matthew 13:12
So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”
— Luke 8:18
Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
— Matthew 13:13
I believe Jesus speaks to them in parables because while they have seen his miracles they don't see (believe), because they have shut their eyes (heart). And they don't hear (understand) the parables for the same reason, because they have shut their heart. Jesus speaks in parables so those with open heart will understand.
So what did the atonement accomplish?The same as for everyone, our sins being paid, conquered, overwon.
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