How is the Grace of God different in the Old Testament?

joevberry3 · Mar 14, 2004

How is God's Grace different from The Old and New Testaments? I mean, we hear people say God's Grace keeps you. So, the question is Why didnt God's Grace keep people in The Old Testament?

God Bless,
Joe

Andrew · Mar 15, 2004

What do you mean by "God's grace keeps you" and what parts of the OT are you refering to when you imply that God's grace did not keep them?

joevberry3 · Mar 15, 2004

Hey Andrew-- I was referring to people that says slavation in the old is different than the new testament. I hear people say we cant be lost cause of God's Grace. My question is Why didnt God's Grace keep people from falling in the Old Testament?

God Bless

joevberry3 · Mar 15, 2004

Hey again Andrew--I am in discussions with a lady about Grace. She refuted me when i said people were "LOST" in the Old Testament that once believed. She said Grace is different now than it was in the Old Testament. How is this true?

Andrew · Mar 15, 2004

Your questions are still a little vague. But I'll take a shot.

Salvation in the OT and NT are basically the same -- by faith in God. Abraham for eg, was counted righteous becos he believed God. David too, was "saved" becos he believed God. What did they believe? They believed the Gospel (they did not just believe that God existed). They saw into the future. God showed them types and shadows of the Saviour and His sacrifice, and they believed God. There's a saying: In the OT they look forward to the cross, in the NT we look back at the cross.

I'll try to answer the next part in another post.

joevberry3 · Mar 15, 2004

Hi Andrew--Sorry it is still vague---i really dont know how to word this question.

Old Testament people such as the Isrealites were destroyed(perished) after they believed--Why couldnt God's Grace keep them from perishing as people says New Testament Grace keeps us from falling out of God's Hand? People say nothing we do can cause us to lose salvation--how is it different now then it was in the Old Testament?
Also Adam and Eve--He allowed them to die spiritually after they sinned against God. Why couldnt he keep them from falling?

Maybe you know what im trying to ask now.
God Bless,
Joe

Svt4Him · Mar 15, 2004

OT were saved by grace through faith. They put their sins on a goat, and offered sacrifices. Only they had to do it each year. That is faith that God is acception the sins being imparted to the goat, and grace that because of it they wouldn't perish. Now we have Jesus, who was the perfect sacrifice. We no longer have to go each year, but it is still faith through grace.

joevberry3 · Mar 15, 2004

Svt4Him said:
OT were saved by grace through faith. They put their sins on a goat, and offered sacrifices. Only they had to do it each year. That is faith that God is acception the sins being imparted to the goat, and grace that because of it they wouldn't perish. Now we have Jesus, who was the perfect sacrifice. We no longer have to go each year, but it is still faith through grace.

Hi Brother. I understand that completely. But, how could someone forsake salvation then but no longer can? I mean the Isrealites were destoyed, adam and eve fell, among LOTS of others. I mean in the Old Testament, people could fall and perish from salvation--but people say it cant happen now. What made the difference from The Old to the New that says NOTHING we do can make us fall from God's Grace and out of his hand so to speak?
God Bless

joevberry3 · Mar 15, 2004

I guess another thing im trying to say is God loved his people in the Old as much as he loves us. If he would let them fall, why not us?

God Bless

Andry · Mar 15, 2004

Joevberry

God bless you brother for starting engaging topics. Even though we may not all agree on 'everything' (which is ok) - I just want to encourage you and let you know that I am being blessed by learning from the different views and perspectives.

joevberry3 · Mar 15, 2004

andry said:
Joevberry

God bless you brother for starting engaging topics. Even though we may not all agree on 'everything' (which is ok) - I just want to encourage you and let you know that I am being blessed by learning from the different views and perspectives.

Thanks Brother Andry! Yeah, im glad we arent robots, arent you? We would then be programmed to all believe the same way. Think God for making us all unique...

Joe

Svt4Him · Mar 15, 2004

joevberry3 said:
Hi Brother. I understand that completely. But, how could someone forsake salvation then but no longer can? I mean the Isrealites were destoyed, adam and eve fell, among LOTS of others. I mean in the Old Testament, people could fall and perish from salvation--but people say it cant happen now. What made the difference from The Old to the New that says NOTHING we do can make us fall from God's Grace and out of his hand so to speak?
God Bless

If this is against OSAS, then your example is incorrect. Adam and Eve sinned, true, but to say they lost their salvation isn't supported by Scripture. David fell, so did Abraham, and I can see the consequence of it, but no indication they were lost. As a matter of fact all have sinned. To infer that because of it they became unsaved isn't a sound argument.

And I'm not even disagreeing with the concept, but this is a bad example to use.

joevberry3 · Mar 15, 2004

This is about Grace and yes the Isrealites did fall and were destroyed. The question again is how did they fall but we no longer can?

joevberry3 · Mar 15, 2004

Saul

Out of all of Israel, God himself chose Saul to be the leader over his inheritance (1 Sam. 10:1 cf. 9:16,17). Since we learn later that God rejected Davids oldest brother (Eliab) to be king because of a wrong heart condition (1 Sam. 16:6,7 cf. 17:28), arent we safe to say God must have chosen Saul to be king on the basis of a proper heart condition? It is also inconceivable that God would have his prophet anoint an unsaved man to be king over his people!

Scripture declares that Saul, in his early days, had the Spirit of God come upon him in power (1 Sam. 10:10). Later, however, God said of the same man:

I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments (1 Sam. 15:11, NKJV).

Saul turned back from following God. Doesnt this clearly indicate that Saul was with God before that point? Soon after Saul stopped following the Lord, we read:

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him (1 Sam. 16:14, NKJV).
The Spirit if the Lord departed from Saul, clear evidence he lost salvation. The question again, how could it happen then but not now?

Jim B · Mar 15, 2004

joevberry3 said:
This is about Grace and yes the Isrealites did fall and were destroyed. The question again is how did they fall but we no longer can?

Who says we can't fall from grace?

Galatians 5
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

\o/

joevberry3 · Mar 15, 2004

Jim B said:
Who says we can't fall from grace?

Galatians 5
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

\o/

Hi Jim. Lots of people teach that we can no longer fall from Grace, no matter what we do. I dont call names, so i wont do that.
Im trying to figure out how this certain lady told me on here last night that people fell in the Old Testament but nothing we do now can make us fall.

Svt4Him · Mar 15, 2004

The Israelites are destroyed?

joevberry3 · Mar 15, 2004

hmmm..were they not in the Old Testament? Maybe you need to reread, all the Isrealites that Moses was leading did NOT make it to the Promised Land--why? Unbelief.
God Bless,
Joe

Trish1947 · Mar 15, 2004

As I understand the OT. There we're a few chosen men that recieved the Holy Spirit, to guide the people, to give them the law, or to be a rightous ruler, or a mean one for judgement, if they did well, God blessed them if they didn't do well, God would punish. But as far as I can see the congretation as a whole was not Spirit filled. The Holy Spirit had not been given to the general house of Isreal. That did not happen until the coming of Jesus and his death and resurrection. Now ALL have the oportunity to receive salvation. Eternal life, a high priest now in Heaven that is familier with our infirmaties of the flesh, So He can be a rightous Priest, able to forgive us when we fall, a ever present help in time of need. He also has commanded His love twords us. A much better covenant.

Before, if you broke these laws, It was great judgement, and punishement, from a human priest, that was very strict according to law. There was not much Mercy, forgivness, or Grace.

joevberry3 · Mar 15, 2004

Svt4Him said:
The Israelites are destroyed?

1 Corinthians chapter 10
1 I don't want you to forget, dear brothers and sisters, what happened to our ancestors in the wilderness long ago. God guided all of them by sending a cloud that moved along ahead of them, and he brought them all safely through the waters of the sea on dry ground. 2 As followers of Moses, they were all baptized in the cloud and the sea. 5 Yet after all this, God was not pleased with most of them, and he destroyed them in the wilderness.

So yes they were destroyed. Cause why? disobedience.

God Bless

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