How is Moses so Powerful?

PaulEdwardMorgan · Jul 8, 2018

From Exodus 32:

9 “I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.” 11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. “LORD,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ” 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

I have a couple of questions:

1) How is it that Moses can calm God down? It seems bizarre that God can say that he is going to do something like destroy a group of people, but Moses can calmly convince Him to not do it. Did God really just chill out and decide that Moses was correct after all? That doesn't sound like "God".

2) In a later part of the chapter, Moses tells the Levites to kill one another because of their sin of idolatry. Wait - didn't he just convince God to spare "his people"? Now, he decides to kill "Levites"? Are the Levites Moses' people? Why did he suddenly change his mind and decide that they should die? It's like he's taking the role that God had been about to take.

Kevin Snow · Jul 8, 2018

PaulEdwardMorgan said:
From Exodus 32:

9 “I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.” 11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. “LORD,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ” 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

I have a couple of questions:

1) How is it that Moses can calm God down? It seems bizarre that God can say that he is going to do something like destroy a group of people, but Moses can calmly convince Him to not do it. Did God really just chill out and decide that Moses was correct after all? That doesn't sound like "God".

2) In a later part of the chapter, Moses tells the Levites to kill one another because of their sin of idolatry. Wait - didn't he just convince God to spare "his people"? Now, he decides to kill "Levites"? Are the Levites Moses' people? Why did he suddenly change his mind and decide that they should die? It's like he's taking the role that God had been about to take.

It's good that you are wrestling with these examples we have in scripture. They point to the character of God and who he is. Continue to pour over the word and ask God to reveal himself to you. God is not who the world thinks he is. He is Yahweh.

PaulEdwardMorgan · Jul 8, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
It's good that you are wrestling with these examples we have in scripture. They point to the character of God and who he is. Continue to pour over the word and ask God to reveal himself to you. God is not who the world thinks he is. He is Yahweh.

Thanks for responding. I've been reading and studying. I find the pursuit simultaneously enriching and challenging. Hopefully, God will reveal himself to me throughout my life.

Kevin Snow · Jul 8, 2018

PaulEdwardMorgan said:
Thanks for responding. I've been reading and studying. I find the pursuit simultaneously enriching and challenging. Hopefully, God will reveal himself to me throughout my life.

Continue down this path of honesty my friend. God himself will answer you.

SkyWriting · Jul 8, 2018

PaulEdwardMorgan said:
From Exodus 32:

9 “I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.” 11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. “LORD,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ” 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

I have a couple of questions:

1) How is it that Moses can calm God down? It seems bizarre that God can say that he is going to do something like destroy a group of people, but Moses can calmly convince Him to not do it. Did God really just chill out and decide that Moses was correct after all? That doesn't sound like "God".

2) In a later part of the chapter, Moses tells the Levites to kill one another because of their sin of idolatry. Wait - didn't he just convince God to spare "his people"? Now, he decides to kill "Levites"? Are the Levites Moses' people? Why did he suddenly change his mind and decide that they should die? It's like he's taking the role that God had been about to take.

Sometimes scripture is more from the writers view and others, more from the Spirit. The two viewpoints do switch. Somebody Thinks God changed His mind....no. But the observer thought it was so.

PaulEdwardMorgan · Jul 8, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
Continue down this path of honesty my friend. God himself will answer you.

Thank you for the prayer and support, Kevin!

PaulEdwardMorgan · Jul 8, 2018

SkyWriting said:
Sometimes scripture is more from the writers view and others, more from the Spirit. The two viewpoints do switch. Somebody Thinks God changed His mind....no. But the observer thought it was so.

Interesting. Maybe God just wanted Moses to understand more fully why He was right, so He simply waited for Moses to witness the ugliness of the sin himself. Once he saw it, he understood God's reasoning. I'm creating this thought process, but maybe it is that God allowed Moses to stand next to Him and filled him with perspective.

EastCoastRemnant · Jul 8, 2018

PaulEdwardMorgan said:
From Exodus 32:

9 “I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.” 11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. “LORD,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ” 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

I have a couple of questions:

1) How is it that Moses can calm God down? It seems bizarre that God can say that he is going to do something like destroy a group of people, but Moses can calmly convince Him to not do it. Did God really just chill out and decide that Moses was correct after all? That doesn't sound like "God".

2) In a later part of the chapter, Moses tells the Levites to kill one another because of their sin of idolatry. Wait - didn't he just convince God to spare "his people"? Now, he decides to kill "Levites"? Are the Levites Moses' people? Why did he suddenly change his mind and decide that they should die? It's like he's taking the role that God had been about to take.

Everything Moses did after the burning Bush (short of smiting the rock) was because he was submitted to God's will and was receiving His Spirit. When God told Moses He was going to destroy the Israelites and give for Moses another people, it was a test of sorts just as when God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Moses was in no way being judged or eliminated with the Israelites but he showed his compassion and long suffering and love for these people. This was the gift of the Holy Spirit and God , I believe, was hoping to see His character returned to him through Moses actions. If Moses hadn't have reacted the way he did, I believe God would have carried out His plan. It was, in a way, a conditional, promise like the story of Jonah and the Ninevites.

Kevin Snow · Jul 8, 2018

PaulEdwardMorgan said:
Interesting. Maybe God just wanted Moses to understand more fully why He was right, so He simply waited for Moses to witness the ugliness of the sin himself. Once he saw it, he understood God's reasoning. I'm creating this thought process, but maybe it is that God allowed Moses to stand next to Him and filled him with perspective.

Look, God was going to destroy the entire people as one man. When Moses comes down and has them kill their brothers and family, he is only doing a shred of what God was going to do. Action was required no matter what. Punishment could not have been avoided but God was ready to vaporize them, so after this was avoided ANY other punishment would be acceptable.

PaulEdwardMorgan · Jul 8, 2018

EastCoastRemnant said:
Everything Moses did after the burning Bush (short of smiting the rock) was because he was submitted to God's will and was receiving His Spirit. When God told Moses He was going to destroy the Israelites and give for Moses another people, it was a test of sorts just as when God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Moses was in no way being judged or eliminated with the Israelites but he showed his compassion and long suffering and love for these people. This was the gift of the Holy Spirit and God , I believe, was hoping to see His character returned to him through Moses actions. If Moses hadn't have reacted the way he did, I believe God would have carried out His plan. It was, in a way, a conditional, promise like the story of Jonah and the Ninevites.

I love that. I just read a similar idea in The Problem of Pain by CS Lewis. He even used the Abraham test analogy.

"'If God is omniscient He must have known what Abraham would do, without any experiment; why, then this needless torture?' But as St. Augustine points out, whatever God knew, Abraham at any rate did not know that his obedience could endure such a command until the event taught him:"

God already knew that Moses would need some perspective, so this is how He provided it. He trained Moses. Very cool. Thanks.

PaulEdwardMorgan · Jul 8, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
Look, God was going to destroy the entire people as one man. When Moses comes down and has them kill their brothers and family, he is only doing a shred of what God was going to do. Action was required no matter what. Punishment could not have been avoided but God was ready to vaporize them, so after this was avoided ANY other punishment would be acceptable.

I get the idea that blood had to be shed to atone for sin, and Jesus was still several hundred years away. I was struggling with how I was thinking God was unsure of what He wanted to do. But through our discussion, I'm seeing that I think God was using the situation to both cleanse and teach. God knew, but Moses did not. Moses needed some context, and God was there to help.

Chinchilla · Jul 8, 2018

PaulEdwardMorgan said:
From Exodus 32:

9 “I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.” 11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. “LORD,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’ ” 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

I have a couple of questions:

1) How is it that Moses can calm God down? It seems bizarre that God can say that he is going to do something like destroy a group of people, but Moses can calmly convince Him to not do it. Did God really just chill out and decide that Moses was correct after all? That doesn't sound like "God".

2) In a later part of the chapter, Moses tells the Levites to kill one another because of their sin of idolatry. Wait - didn't he just convince God to spare "his people"? Now, he decides to kill "Levites"? Are the Levites Moses' people? Why did he suddenly change his mind and decide that they should die? It's like he's taking the role that God had been about to take.

1) God has foreknowledge it's not like he was surprised , same when Abraham was talking with God about sparing Sodom because of 50 sake , then 45 and then finally 10...
God did not find 10 but he let Lot alive out of city and then destroyed it.
Same when Moses stroke the rock twice instead of once , God could just simply warn him to pay attention but he wanted Moses to not inherit now because he would use him in future in the tribulation period .Same story with Jonah , it's not like preaching to city made God surprised that they turned away from sin , he raised up Jonah to go there to preach so he could save the city instead of destroying it . It's when God has to be the judge and also want to be love and show mercy , but he can't choose just one he has to do both .

2) These people show that they were not of the LORD by making the golden bull .
You can imagine these miracles that they witnessed yet they still did not believe and went to thier pagan practices .

Kevin Snow · Jul 8, 2018

PaulEdwardMorgan said:
I get the idea that blood had to be shed to atone for sin, and Jesus was still several hundred years away. I was struggling with how I was thinking God was unsure of what He wanted to do. But through our discussion, I'm seeing that I think God was using the situation to both cleanse and teach. God knew, but Moses did not. Moses needed some context, and God was there to help.

Doesn't the fact that God was going to destroy them here at this sin teach us the fear of God? Is it not for an example that God has acted, being zealous for his holy name? And we should understand that God most certainly would have destroyed them if not for Moses interceding. God actually looks for a man to do this! Here read this word:

And I sought for a man among them who should build up the wall and stand in the breach before me for the land, that I should not destroy it, but I found none. ~Ezekiel 22:30

God wants us to be a part of his work! He doesn't want us to just watch as he does everything. He wants us to experience who he is through taking part in his redemptive work.

SkyWriting · Jul 9, 2018

PaulEdwardMorgan said:
Interesting. Maybe God just wanted Moses to understand more fully why He was right, so He simply waited for Moses to witness the ugliness of the sin himself. Once he saw it, he understood God's reasoning. I'm creating this thought process, but maybe it is that God allowed Moses to stand next to Him and filled him with perspective.

There are other, more obvious passages that say "God got angry at this" or something like that, are more clearly a story convention rather than a superior informed voice-over narrator.

PaulEdwardMorgan · Jul 9, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
Doesn't the fact that God was going to destroy them here at this sin teach us the fear of God? Is it not for an example that God has acted, being zealous for his holy name? And we should understand that God most certainly would have destroyed them if not for Moses interceding. God actually looks for a man to do this! Here read this word:

And I sought for a man among them who should build up the wall and stand in the breach before me for the land, that I should not destroy it, but I found none. ~Ezekiel 22:30

God wants us to be a part of his work! He doesn't want us to just watch as he does everything. He wants us to experience who he is through taking part in his redemptive work.

Well put. I think this is something I'm slowly learning. Thanks for sharing!

PaulEdwardMorgan · Jul 9, 2018

SkyWriting said:
There are other, more obvious passages that say "God got angry at this" or something like that, are more clearly a story convention rather than a superior informed voice-over narrator.

I was praying this morning for God to reveal himself to me. Kevin Snow suggested this, and it rang true for me (I'm still learning how to do this ). One thing that came into my thoughts was that I am struggling too hard with the words that are used. Perhaps it was God speaking through Moses, so Moses could understand what God wanted (or what would be pleasing to God), but ultimately he had to use his own words to communicate it to his people. How God "sounded" or the "words" he used to Moses is something that only Moses could have heard. I'm getting hung up on the verbiage, and that is missing the forest (rules for living prosperously and safely at the time) for the trees (sentence details and structure).

PaulEdwardMorgan · Jul 9, 2018

Chinchilla said:
1) God has foreknowledge it's not like he was surprised , same when Abraham was talking with God about sparing Sodom because of 50 sake , then 45 and then finally 10...
God did not find 10 but he let Lot alive out of city and then destroyed it.
Same when Moses stroke the rock twice instead of once , God could just simply warn him to pay attention but he wanted Moses to not inherit now because he would use him in future in the tribulation period .Same story with Jonah , it's not like preaching to city made God surprised that they turned away from sin , he raised up Jonah to go there to preach so he could save the city instead of destroying it . It's when God has to be the judge and also want to be love and show mercy , but he can't choose just one he has to do both .

2) These people show that they were not of the LORD by making the golden bull .
You can imagine these miracles that they witnessed yet they still did not believe and went to thier pagan practices .

Exactly. God created His children to have free will, so He has to be there to both guide them and judge them. Are they following His direction? Well, He knows whether they will or will not, but they do not know. So He has to allow them to learn even though sometimes the lessons can be painful. Plus, sometimes the lessons are only learned through generations; meaning discipline may be lost on the one who strayed, but when looking at it "generationally" (to co-opt a word), God is training His people, not just a person.

How is Moses so Powerful?

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