How God has always existed.

smithaw9027 · Nov 13, 2003

Someone asked the question "how is it possible for God to have always existed.?" I would say "how is it possible for anything to exist without God?" Science states that energy and consequently matter/substances cannot be created or destroyed. So the idea that the world started without God seems nonsensical to me. Nothing comes from nothing. Everything comes from something. THE ONLY way our existence can be explained is that there is a higher power who doesn't conform to the boundaries of science -who spoke science into existence. That higher power is God. How are we here?: God made us. For us to exist there has to be something- someone that science can't understand. That someone is God. He made us for fellowship with him, and when mankind -his creation that he would be perfectly justified in destroying- broke that fellowship, he loved us enough to send his one and only son to die for us, so that the fellowship could be reestablished for all eternity. We will rule with God forever!

shprdslamb7 · Nov 13, 2003

My dad has always asked this same question...I think that's a pretty good answer.

It's one of those things that I "file away". I let it go until God decides to give me a revelation on it.

Our finite minds cannot fathom God's infinite Mind. It's like trying to explain the inner workings of a computer to a 3 year old.

Shimmerstar · Nov 14, 2003

How can something have an infinite mind if the universe is finite?

Ben_Hur · Nov 14, 2003

Einstien showed that time is a property, or a dimension of our Universe. Today's scientists are now pretty sure there are at least 10 dimensions (besides the 4 we live in). Now, for God to have created the Universe, which includes time, he had to be outside of time. This puts him into the realm called eternity, where time does not exist. Now, if time does not exist in eternity, then there can be no beginnings or endings in eternity (because those terms are based on "time").

This means that since God is in the eternal realm, then He has ALWAYS been there. He didn't have a beginning. He doesn't have an ending either (eternity can't end).

To understand this, it is very important to remember not to think about the restraints of time. When you take those out of the equations in your mind, interesting possibilities sort of begin to fade into your brain. It is hard to do much with them, though, because the concept is so foreign to us "time dependent" folk.

hogrifle · Nov 14, 2003

You should first work out the far easier of the two questions, "How do we go about instructing ants in geometry?" He is known by faith, with or without comprehension.

chilehed · Nov 15, 2003

smithaw9027 said:
Nothing comes from nothing. Everything comes from something.

The statement "everything comes from something" presumes that there is no god.

The valid way to state the argument is:
1. Every effect must have a cause.
2. No effect can cause itself.
3.There can be no infinite regression of effects (rather like there can be no infinitely long train passing you with no engine somewhere up front).
4. Therefore there must be some uncaused first cause. This is God.

So far I've not heard a good rebuttal of this, not even from Jet Black or lucaspa (who managed to convince me that evolution isn't as unlikely as I had thought - but let's not go there).

WanderingMagi · Nov 15, 2003

chilehed said:
4. Therefore there must be some uncaused first cause. This is God.

This is true.

While I have not heard any explanation for either the existence of the universe without God, or for the existence of a Christian God (that's unfathomable...) there is one for a theistic God.

Simply this. An all powerful being can create themselves before they exist - even an infinitely long time before. In other words, an all powerful being is a potentiality that will inevitably be fulfilled. Matter cannot flow from nothing, but nothing cannot exist without God coming into existence. God cannot not exist.

Note firstly that this doesn't guarantee the character of God, nor does it sound very much like the God described in the Bible. I posit it not because I necessarily believe it (though the inevitability of the existence of God is true) but because it is superior to an atheistic conception of creation and therefore hints at the possibility of something better.

WanderingMagi

Ben_Hur · Nov 15, 2003

An all powerful being can create themselves before they exist

This statement cannot be logically resolved. It's like saying "everything I say is a lie." You can't get to the truth.

It reminds me of the cartoon where the character pulls themself out of a hat (like a rabbit).

I'm surprised this works on atheists, but...whatever works, I guess...

wonder111 · Nov 15, 2003

Ben_Hur said:
Einstien showed that time is a property, or a dimension of our Universe. Today's scientists are now pretty sure there are at least 10 dimensions (besides the 4 we live in). Now, for God to have created the Universe, which includes time, he had to be outside of time. This puts him into the realm called eternity, where time does not exist. Now, if time does not exist in eternity, then there can be no beginnings or endings in eternity (because those terms are based on "time").

This means that since God is in the eternal realm, then He has ALWAYS been there. He didn't have a beginning. He doesn't have an ending either (eternity can't end).

To understand this, it is very important to remember not to think about the restraints of time. When you take those out of the equations in your mind, interesting possibilities sort of begin to fade into your brain. It is hard to do much with them, though, because the concept is so foreign to us "time dependent" folk.

I was going to say the same thing, in C.S Lewis's book "mere Christianity" there is a great chapter on time beyond time. That has been my belief before I read the chapter, but it sums it up nicely! Basically we are a dot on a line travelling forward (in our reality) and God is the whole complete line

shprdslamb7 · Nov 15, 2003

Well, guess I'll just sit back and shut up.

You should first work out the far easier of the two questions, "How do we go about instructing ants in geometry?" He is known by faith, with or without comprehension.

Can I borrow that?

Reverend DSD · Nov 15, 2003

Why is it that god had to come first? Why couldn't the universe have existed, and created him/her/it? Also, what says the everything couldn't have just existed. I understand the idea that everything has to begin at some point. The question is, does it have to begin to exist. Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean that it is impossible.

Sincerely,
Rev. DSD

Ben_Hur · Nov 15, 2003

Reverend DSD said:
Why is it that god had to come first? Why couldn't the universe have existed, and created him/her/it? Also, what says the everything couldn't have just existed. I understand the idea that everything has to begin at some point. The question is, does it have to begin to exist. Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean that it is impossible.

Sincerely,
Rev. DSD

Absolutely we cannot fully understand exactly how things were or the nature of eternity, etc. We can only guess based on what God has revealed to the scientists of today.

It doesn't really matter that we understand the TRUE nature of the "beginnings" of God. Such an understanding is not required for salvation.

This sort of discussions are meant to help doubting Christians, atheists, and agnostics to come to an understanding of the "possibilities" based on modern physics.

If you don't doubt, the don't worry about it

Reverend DSD · Nov 16, 2003

Ben Hur,
I completely agree with what you are saying, and even though it may not have come off that way, it was along the same lines of what I was trying to epress. So when you say it is to help understand "possibilities", that is what I was throwing out there. I was just throwing out a possibility that everyone was kind of ignoring. But what you are saying makes sense and I completely agree.

Sincerely,
Rev. DSD

Ben_Hur · Nov 16, 2003

Reverend DSD said:
Ben Hur,
I completely agree with what you are saying, and even though it may not have come off that way, it was along the same lines of what I was trying to epress. So when you say it is to help understand "possibilities", that is what I was throwing out there. I was just throwing out a possibility that everyone was kind of ignoring. But what you are saying makes sense and I completely agree.

Sincerely,
Rev. DSD

Okey dokey then

How God has always existed.

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