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How does God know the future?

Gimmick

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How does God know the future, according to Calvinism?

In my casual reading on the subject I have found information defending the Calvinist position, but it is mostly written like I should already know what the Calvinist position is.

Is this fair to say: "God knows the future because he preordained the future."

And preordaining the future does not simply mean the general course of history will unfold how he planned, but it means he preordained everything. He knows what color shirt I will wear each day next year because he preordained that I would wear those colors. He knows I will tell a lie next week because he preordained that I will tell a lie next week.

Am I close? Thanks.

P.S. I'm Lutheran, in case it helps to know my background on the subject. We officially have no position on how God knows the future.
 

twin1954

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I can't answer for all Calvinists but you seem to have the answer already as you state it in your question. Though we do have to be very careful with the thinking of God ordaining sin it is very clear in the Scriptures that God ordains the evil that men do for good purposes. Examples would be Joseph and his brothers, Gen. 50:21, and the evil of wicked men killing the Son of God, Acts 2:23. We often get the robot argument because of this truth but God does not make us sin for it is clear that we act exactly as we desire yet do so in such a way as to fulfill the purpose of God.
 
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Gimmick

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Thank you. I'm still not sure I understand how it works. I don't see how Calvinism doesn't fall off the tracks one way or the other, either into Molinism one way or robotics the other.

I am glad that Lutherans can, in no uncertain terms, say that God does not will evil to happen. Correct me if I am wrong, but these are Lutheran statements of belief that I do not think a Calvinist could agree with.

"God's foreknowledge foresees and foreknows what is evil, yet not in the sense that it is God's gracious will that evil should happen."
"The beginning and cause of evil is not God's foreknowledge, (For God does not create and do evil, neither does He help or promote it.) The cause of this evil is the wicked, perverse will of the devil and of people. (Hosea 13:9, Psalm 5:4)"
 
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twin1954

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Thank you. I'm still not sure I understand how it works. I don't see how Calvinism doesn't fall off the tracks one way or the other, either into Molinism one way or robotics the other.
It isn't about God knowing what we will do in any given circumstance or about God making us in such a way that we have no will. What is true is that God gave us wills and the ability to make choices but He controls everything that influences those choices, down to the very thoughts we have. Psalm 107 is a perfect example, He brings about that which will cause men to cry unto Him but they do it because they want to.

To say that God, in no uncertain terms, doesn't will evil to happen is to say that God is not in control. If anything happens that He hasn't willed then He is either unable to stop it or doesn't know all things. I can agree to the second statement, with a qualification of course, but the first I cannot. Foreknowledge is not the same as foresight. God foreknows people not things. The Scriptures never use the term in reference to things but always people. Still God doesn't foresee by looking down through time but by foreordaining all that happens. If God foresees by looking down through time then He is reacting to what He sees and that would mean that He is learning and changing which we know the Scriptures declare He does not. God knows the end from the beginning because He has determined the end from the beginning and everything that brings it about.
 
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Gimmick

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God is not unable to stop evil. He could stop evil by blotting out man from the face of the land. (Genesis 6:7) No evil would be happening after that! Or, like the parable of the weeds (Matt 13:24), God could pull out the weeds (which were sowed by the enemy by the way), but that would risk pulling out some of the wheat along with the weeds.
 
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twin1954

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Since we know that He is not unable to stop evil then He must be unwilling to. If He is unwilling to then it must be according to His will.
 
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twin1954

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BTW God alone knows the weeds from the wheat and can pull the weeds without any harm to the wheat. That is the whole point of the parable.
 
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Gimmick

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Since we know that He is not unable to stop evil then He must be unwilling to. If He is unwilling to then it must be according to His will.

If God is unwilling to stop an evil, that tells us it is not his will to stop the evil. It does not follow that it is his will for the evil to happen. For example, it is not the will of a parent that a child should fall off a bicycle, but the parent may be unwilling to catch them every time, so the child can learn to ride.

BTW God alone knows the weeds from the wheat and can pull the weeds without any harm to the wheat. That is the whole point of the parable.

Jesus explained that parable. He did not say that was the whole point.

I just thought God knows the future because He knows all things. What else is there to say?

That is pretty much the Lutheran position.
 
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twin1954

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We have gone from asking a question to arguing. You wanted to know the answer to your question and I gave it. I don't expect you to agree with it.
 
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JM

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Everything that happens in time was decreed from all eternity. Gimmick, you need to look no further than Martin Luther's biblical defense of the absolute predestination of all things, The Bondage of the Will. Luther consistency defends this position throughout his work.

"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned." Martin Luther, Commentary on Romans 1515

It is true that when Luther was older and sick, he softened in his fight for the faith. This allowed Melanchthon's view to become the traditional Lutheran view but Luther himself never retracted or changed his views on the subject. God knows all things because He decreed all things into existence. God is omniscienct, all knowing, not all learning.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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JM

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If God is unwilling to stop an evil...

Scripture assures us that Christ is ruling, reigning and conquering now through the preaching of the Gospel...so it's not that God is unwilling to stop evil but that evil has been decreed for a purpose. God is willing to allow evil to continue to fulfill His will.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Gimmick

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Thanks guys. You have done a pretty good job of letting me what Calvinism is, but I don't think my brain will ever make sense of what you are telling me. "Everything that happens in time was decreed from all eternity." Adam and Eve's rebellion was decreed from all eternity? What does that even mean? What are you trying to tell me? God decreed a rebellion against himself? How could you rebel against that? Would you rebel by not rebelling, since God decreed a rebellion? I am not following.

If Calvinism is correct and it is my fault by being too think-headed to understand, then that's the way it is going to be, I guess.
 
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JM

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Adam and Eve's rebellion was decreed from all eternity?

The fall was decreed from eternity, yes.

What does that even mean?

Are you asking why God decreed the fall?

What are you trying to tell me?

I'm telling you that everything that happens in time was purposed by God to work for good for them that love God. Rom. 8.28

God decreed a rebellion against himself? How could you rebel against that? Would you rebel by not rebelling, since God decreed a rebellion? I am not following.

You are asking the same questions Paul was asked in Romans 9.

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

Paul answers you thusly, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, …

If Calvinism is correct and it is my fault by being too think-headed to understand, then that's the way it is going to be, I guess.

Yours in The Lord,

jm
 
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Gimmick

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Are you asking why God decreed the fall?
No, I am not asking why. I do not even understand what you are saying. "Decreed the fall" sounds like nonsense to me. I don't know what the meaning of "fall" you could be using. If the fall was decreed, than Adam and Eve were doing what they were supposed to be doing, so how could it even be called a "fall"?

I'm telling you that everything that happens in time was purposed by God to work for good for them that love God. Rom. 8.28
I think "predordination" is just too strong a word to describe Rom 8:28. God can work events to his purposes without preordaining them.
 
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hedrick

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The usual answer is "compatibilism." That is, we think the God having a plan for everything is compatible with people making responsible choices. (I say responsible rather than free because the definition of free will is one of the major matters under discussion.)

I don't think that the essence of responsible choice is unpredictability. I believe that the saner and more coherent someone's decision making, the easier it would be to predict it. This can only be speculation due to my dim knowledge of God, but I would bet that if we had God's perspective on things we would find that given his character and goals, he had no choice but to do what he actually did.

Rather, the essence of responsible choice is that the choice reflects the person's character, the situation, and his goals. That someone forced him to do something diminishes responsibility, because the choice no longer reflects his own character. Insanity also diminishes responsibility, because the choice may be based on an illusion, and not the person's actual character. But the fact that someone is acting in accordance with God's plan doesn't involve either force or insanity, and doesn't diminish the fact that the person actually makes the decisions that they make, and those decisions reflect their character. [This is basically the analysis in Jonathan Edwards "Freedom of the Will"]

In most Reformed thought, God works through secondary causes. He doesn't just reach down and do things most of the time. He is responsible of the entire situation and all the people in it, and makes sure that all the parts fit together to come out according to his plan.

This means that in most cases there are two explanations of every event, both of which are true. One is in terms of God's plan, the other explains it in terms of the normal operation of intelligent agents and nature law. God uses that operation to execute his plan. [In the Institutes, Calvin gives an example where there are actually three accounts operating at the same time, because Satan is involved. People are acting in accordance with his plan. But he is unknowingly part of a more far-reaching plan by God.]

This is particularly true in the case of salvation, because the normal concept of providence -- with God responsible for everything that happens -- is joined by something more personal. The Holy Spirit is personally present in all Christians, regenerating them and enabling them to follow God's will.

(I note that I'm not necessarily describing my own beliefs of how God actually works, though I do think traditional Reformed theology's account is rational and self-consistent. Many modern Reformed thinkers have sympathies for Lutheran thought on this issue, and even open theism. But most participants here are traditional.)
 
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stenerson

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Who understands all of God's workings? We simply try to be honest with what scripture presents.
You don't like the term preordination? Did you mean Romans 8:29 "predestination?" What do the greek scholars think this word is and why do you think they are wrong? What would you replace the word with? Something less controversial?
 
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Gimmick

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Who understands all of God's workings? We simply try to be honest with what scripture presents.
That's a great attitude. But, I don't see the scripture as presenting a God that predestines every event.

Just one example. In 1 Samuel 8, it was the will of the people of Israel that determined the course of events. God told Samuel to obey their voice on the matter of having a king or not, and they chose to have a king. Israel got a king because Israel willed it. God clearly would have rather they didn't.

You don't like the term preordination? Did you mean Romans 8:29 "predestination?" What do the greek scholars think this word is and why do you think they are wrong? What would you replace the word with? Something less controversial?
No. Romans 8:29–30 is dealing specifically with the predestination of elect Christians, which Lutherans fully acknowledge.

My point was that I don't think any of the verses are describing the predestination of all things. I don't take the fact that God predestined Christians to faith to mean that God predestined everything.
 
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twin1954

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I think you would profit from reading this:

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD-Contents

You don't have to agree with it but you will at least get a grasp of the Calvinist position and why.


Now, of course, if you want to argue/debate then take it to the proper forum.
 
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