sounds like you're blaming men for women choosing immodest dress in Church. Its not sexist because I expect the same from males.
No need to go overboard in such scientific objectivity!So, rather than seeing women's breasts as a pleasant adornment that is also contextualized by the feeding needs of infants,
But here's the thing - and it's why I tend to get grumpy in these threads - if it's really about the woman's conscience, everyone else should butt out. The refusal of others to do so suggests that there's some other concern at play.
But that's a different argument. Telling women to be careful what we intend in how we dress is one thing. Telling us that we "cause" men to sin is inaccurate and piles on us a guilt for which we are not responsible.
And you can't tell what a woman intends or intended by looking at her. You can make some educated guesses, but you can never know for sure.
No, I refute that either of those are a cause of sin.
The cause of your sin lies within you, not in what is around you.
(The apple did not cause Eve to eat, the gun does not cause the killer to murder, and so on... )
A man's sexual sin is his own; he should learn to keep custody of his eyes and thoughts and behaviours.
Not causing your brother to stumble is a separate argument.
Of course, if you know your brother or sister in Christ well enough to know what his or her particular weaknesses are, supporting him or her in that is a good thing.
But that is very, very different to blaming women for men's behaviour, or labelling a woman a "tempter" when she may have intended no such thing.
Edited to add: and while I'm thinking about it, the argument about causing to stumble cuts both ways in this. Why do men not think about whether their treatment of women might feed into feelings of shame or worthlessness, or of being reduced to bodies/sexual objects rather than beloved daughters of God with all the dignity that implies?
But here's the thing - and it's why I tend to get grumpy in these threads - if it's really about the woman's conscience, everyone else should butt out. The refusal of others to do so suggests that there's some other concern at play.
Lust is a problem within a person. Christ taught lust is wrong. A man or woman should not be so distracted at a swimming pool. Self control is an important skill.
My reading of the verse from Timothy is that it's more about costliness and displays of wealth, than displays of flesh.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't think about how we present our bodies, but I think that verse from Timothy's a pretty shaky foundation from which to try to harangue women about their necklines or hemlines.
(Of course - side note - the bra as we know it only dates to the late nineteenth century or so. It or anything like it would have been totally unknown in Paul's day, although apparently some Greek and Roman women did bind their breasts for support, though probably more for display than for modesty! Wind back a bit more than a century from our time, and you'd have had people discussing whether it was respectable to abandon a full corset, and no doubt opining that only a tight-laced corset would properly support a right relationship with Jesus... food for thought?)
In the late 19th century, bras replaced the corset as the most widely used means of breast support. By the early 20th century, garments more closely resembling contemporary bras had emerged, although large-scale commercial production did not occur till the 1930s. Since then bras have replaced corsets (although some women prefer camisoles) and a minority go without. During the 20th century, greater emphasis has been given to the fashion aspects of bras. Bra manufacture is a multibillion-dollar industry dominated by large multinational corporations.
The womans conscience is central but standing at the front of a Sunday service wearing a mini skirt, showing cleavage and not wearing a bra will impact on a lot of other people also. Surely her conscience must accommodate predictable impacts on others?
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