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GratiaCorpusChristi
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I'm referring to the Greek idea of Tartarus, not it's biblical usage.
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Tartarus is not Gehenna. Imo, Tartarus is the bottomless pit (Abyss) where the angels who left their first estates are chained for Gehenna/Lake of fire.
In the beginning, there was the belly/the hollow of the earth, where the soul of Abel cried out loudly and frantically to YHWH from, for the avenging of His blood. Genesis 4.
The "voice of Abel's blood" is "the voice of Abel's soul". The soul that departs the dead flesh body is the person, and the life, and the blood. Abel went to "the belly of the earth =Sheol ="the hollows" and cried out to YHWH from there for the avenging of his blood.
Corruption entered the creation at the fall, and corruption is the dust the satan/serpent "eats", since the curse.
The Greeks got their doctrines from captured nations, having formerly been just a small tribe of shepherds with no wisdom collections or doctrines of their own. When they conquered the Holy Land, they got the doctrine of Hades from the Israelites true story of the nuking of Sodom and Gomorrah. The "well spring of judgment" which is Hades, in Genesis 14 is the example of everlasting fire and brimstone.
The word Hades is transliterated from the Hebrew "qadesh" which was the name given to the well spring of God's judgment. It means "holy" in an evil sense, like "dedicated male temple prostitutes". The gutteral "q" becomes the gutteral "K", becomes the gutteral "H", and the Kadesh becomes Hades.
If by "cast out of Paradise," you mean Adam was created in and then expelled from the Paradise that Jesus promisedParadise was never the holding place for the dead, ever! Adam was cast out of Paradise and never could go back! -and certainly not "by death"! Paradise is where the Tree of Life is.
The Ramson price paid by the Son of Man come in flesh is the only way back! And the first soul promised entry back at his death was the thief on the cross, who died after the Ranson was paid ["It is finished"].
I was merely reporting what was believed in the OT, not what was the truth of the matter.In the beginning, there was just Sheol: the ground, where dead bodies went. Once Jewish prophets began to envision a final resurrection, they started considering the possibility of an intermediate state, and Sheol extended from the place where dead bodies go to the place where a people's shade/spirit/breath/soul goes. The person's shade, however, was in merely a dreamlike state, and not really conscious.
So:
Sheol 1.0 = the dirt, where the dead literally go
Sheol 2.0 = general realm of the dead, where people's shades exist in a dreamlike semi-conscious state
After this development came the Jewish encounter with Hellenism in the wake of Alexander's conquests in the 320s BCE. The Greeks believed in Hades, which was pretty much exactly like Sheol 2.0 (a realm of the dead with a semi-conscious dreamlike existence).
Hades = Sheol 2.0
And, importantly, the New Testament uses Hades to translate the Hebrew term Sheol. Hades, in turn, typically gets translated "hell" in the New Testament.
However, the Greeks also believed that within Hades there were more conscious states, especially at the end of the spectrum: the Elysian Fields, where the very just and pious dead, and very heroic dead, are conscious in order to receive their reward, and Tartarus, where the very unjust and impious dead, as well as the very cowardly and notorious traitors, are conscious in order to be punished. Strands of Judaism picked up on this and it's to that model that Jesus is referring in the parable of Lazarus and Dives.
So:
Elysian Fields/Abraham's bosom = that part of Hades/Sheol where the very righteous are awake in order to enjoy their reward
Tartarus/Gehenna = the part of Hades/Sheol where the very wicked are awake in order to receive punishment
Then, early Christianity (beginning with Paul?) developed the idea that there isn't one realm of the dead with spheres or modes (conscious in Tartarus, generalized dreaming dead, and conscious in Elysium), but two: just heaven and hell, with everyone awake to enjoy or suffer in the intermediate period between death and resurrection.
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Now, in order to make sense of this historical development of apocalyptic eschatology, early Christian theologians essentially affirmed that the threefold model of a common afterlife, with soul sleep for most, was the case before crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Christ. Then, after the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, Christ took up his role as judge and priest in the heavens and so raised the moderately righteous from soul sleep and had them join the consciously righteous in Abraham's Bosom in heaven to participate in the heavenly worship in God's throne room; meanwhile, the moderately wicked were also awakened and sent to join their fellow evildoers in Tartarus. In essence, all of Sheol/Hades then became "hell," hence our translations.
Hope that helps.
Is this thread sneakily transforming into a soul-sleep or annihilationism debate?
I did not say Anything like that.If by "cast out of Paradise," you mean Adam was created in and then expelled from the Paradise that Jesus promised
to the thief on the cross, you are more than confused.
No, it does not....I meant in the beginning of the development of Israelite conceptions of the afterlife, not in the beginning of the world. Genesis 4 tells the story of Abel from the perspective of later Israelite concepts.
In the Old Testament, there is no Hell, only Sheol, which is where EVERYONE who dies goes, not just righteous people. In the New Testament you have Hell. Apparently the ancient Jews were influenced by the Greek view of the afterlife during the Hellenistic Age. The Greeks had a realm for the good (the Elysian fields) and a realm for the bad (Tartarus) unlike the ancient Jews.
So...for a while this has been a big problem for me. It seems like a flaw in the internal consistency of the Bible. How do you explain it?
Hell was certainly an Idea created by the Catholic Church to the meaning of Sheol.
They created this unseen meaning i.e. Hell confusing the real meaning which was common man's grave, is the real truth of the matter.
The Hebrew word sheohl′ occurs 65 times in the Masoretic text. In the King James Version, it is translated 31 times as hell, 31 times as grave, and 3 times as pit. The Catholic Douay Version rendered the word 63 times as hell, once as pit, and once as death.
In other words it mean grave which, we go to when we die.
(Romans 6:7) 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.
No such place of fiery torment it's a lie.
No, it does not....
The Word of God is true from the beginning and God did not wait to 'splain things until there was some kind of "evolving" of the Adam.
God created Adam fully mature and with the aleph-bet fully installed with the software for understanding the meaning of each letter installed, so that he could name all the animals with understanding and wisdom immediately, and so that he could fellowship with God the Creator in daily conversation.
The belly of the earth is the "hollows of earth in the belly" which the word "sheol comes from.
Sheol means "hollow".
The Greeks had their concepts of Hades, Tartarus, and the Elysian Fields centuries before Alexander conquered the Persian provide of Yehud!
In the Old Testament, there is no Hell, only Sheol, which is where EVERYONE who dies goes, not just righteous people. In the New Testament you have Hell. Apparently the ancient Jews were influenced by the Greek view of the afterlife during the Hellenistic Age. The Greeks had a realm for the good (the Elysian fields) and a realm for the bad (Tartarus) unlike the ancient Jews.
So...for a while this has been a big problem for me. It seems like a flaw in the internal consistency of the Bible. How do you explain it?
I showed in a prior post that Hades is nothing more than an adopted name which was coined by the Hebrews to describe "The well Spring Of Judgment" -"Kades" ="Hades" which was inflicted from heaven upon Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain centuries before the descendents of Japheth, through Javan/Yavan rose to any prominence in what later came to be called "Greece"....
Homer's Iliad and Odyssey are from the ninth century BCE! And, even if the Minoan and Mycenaean "Greeks" of the thirteenth century BCE got their concepts of the afterlife from elsewhere, they almost certainly got it from Mesopotamia and Egypt, not a confederation of hill tribes off the main roads of the Levant. Gee-oh-peez.
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The Book of Enoch is totally corroborated by the Torah and the prophets and by the LORD Jesus and the Apostles -esp John, who wrote the Revelation of Christ given to him- and it proves that you are in error on this matter.The Bible is not internally consistent. It is a group of ancient manuscripts written by different authors in different time periods to different groups of people. Sheol was a Jewish concept. Heaven and Hell were Greek concepts.
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