How do we know God is real?

And I need suggestions on this video...

E = mc2... The power of light and energy - YouTube

The simple question to your question is: How do we know that God isn't real?

Look around you, earth.
Every invention of man fails. Every society crumbles. Every body dies off.
Yet, in the face of terror, the birds arise each morning, the wind blows, the sun shines, one out of 100 people smiles, the grass is green...how are we to judge on God's existence if we cannot even grasp the reality of his creation?

Mass and energy are not eternal. If they were, then we wouldn't be here, we would be cycling ever backwards toward negative infinity(if now is zero). Since we are here, this proves the universe had a start. How did it get started? Well some have theorized that the Big Bang started it. Well nothing creates nothing, as something never comes from nothing. Thus, it has to have had a something that never had a beginning(or else the infinite backwards thing comes back). Since our God is eternal and had no creator, he fits the bill.

Girder of Loins said:

How did it get started? Well some have theorized that the Big Bang started it. Well nothing creates nothing, as something never comes from nothing. Thus, it has to have had a something that never had a beginning(or else the infinite backwards thing comes back). Since our God is eternal and had no creator, he fits the bill.

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You highly understate that. "some" have indeed theorized about the big bang. But "some" in this case happens to be cosmologists and astrophysicists who have dedicated their life to discovering the nature of the universe. Einstein, and Lemaître, to Hubble and Bethe, scientists have worked on it for decades, using the work of those who also devoted their lives to the search for the nature of reality, and when the dust cleared the Big Bang model is what stood above the rest. If by "some" you mean the scientific community as a whole after decades of research and analysis", then I can accept its use. But I feel as if this is not the case.

Also, a great misunderstanding about the big bang is that people think that it state "nothing becomes everything". But if you asked any physicist if the Big Bang theory says anything of this sort, you would be quickly corrected. The more accepted view is that all of the mass in the universe was held in a singularity of matter. There was something and everything else came from that. Please never say what you said about the big bang again, because it is a false belief that holds no weight.

Also, the solution you posed actually gets us in no way shape or form closer to a real answer and is no way a shut down argument for the existence of your particular deity. I find it quite convenient that you state that your god fits the bill, but ignore the fact that the infinite number of other deities also fit that same bill. Also, there is absolutely nothing that causally connects said eternal deity to the creation of the universe (just because he/she was there, doesn't mean they had anything to do with it).

I also find it convenient that you go down claiming that something never comes from nothing, but make one exception for the eternal, had-no-creator, god that you believe in. If you are willing to make an exception to the rule there, why is it impossible to make an exception elsewhere. Why couldn't the matter and energy be eternal like you originally dismissed. What if the energy and matter are god? Have you ever considered that as a possibility?

WildeBear said:

The simple question to your question is: How do we know that God isn't real?

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Simple. We don't know either way. I mean in the sense that we can never be 100% certain about anything. But that doesn't stop us from holding accurate beliefs based off of what we observe. From what I have observed, I find it better to stick with the default position of non-belief rather than commit myself to a position in which I would be unable to defend.

Look around you, earth.
Every invention of man fails. Every society crumbles. Every body dies off.
Yet, in the face of terror, the birds arise each morning, the wind blows, the sun shines, one out of 100 people smiles, the grass is green...how are we to judge on God's existence if we cannot even grasp the reality of his creation?

Click to expand...

Every invention of man fails only when man innovates beyond and leaves the past behind. Societies crumble but are eventually replaced by different societies that are new and different.

Everybody does die off for the time being, which is a tragedy beyond tragedy, and I am hoping we will manage to fix this soon.

This terror you describe is the price of life and the price of living. And what you describe as the world going on exactly as it did before, that's because the Universe doesn't care about humanity. The laws of physics aren't bound by what we believe.

You represent life on earth as if it is a torture that we have to endure, imagining only 1 out of 100 smiling. But believe me, if you wanted to make the world a better place, you wouldn't just call it an incomprehensible creation of a supposedly benevolent god, you would look at those people you see frowning and try to make them smile.

Bordamere said:

You highly understate that. "some" have indeed theorized about the big bang. But "some" in this case happens to be cosmologists and astrophysicists who have dedicated their life to discovering the nature of the universe. Einstein, and Lemaître, to Hubble and Bethe, scientists have worked on it for decades, using the work of those who also devoted their lives to the search for the nature of reality, and when the dust cleared the Big Bang model is what stood above the rest. If by "some" you mean the scientific community as a whole after decades of research and analysis", then I can accept its use. But I feel as if this is not the case.

Also, a great misunderstanding about the big bang is that people think that it state "nothing becomes everything". But if you asked any physicist if the Big Bang theory says anything of this sort, you would be quickly corrected. The more accepted view is that all of the mass in the universe was held in a singularity of matter. There was something and everything else came from that. Please never say what you said about the big bang again, because it is a false belief that holds no weight.

Also, the solution you posed actually gets us in no way shape or form closer to a real answer and is no way a shut down argument for the existence of your particular deity. I find it quite convenient that you state that your god fits the bill, but ignore the fact that the infinite number of other deities also fit that same bill. Also, there is absolutely nothing that causally connects said eternal deity to the creation of the universe (just because he/she was there, doesn't mean they had anything to do with it).

I also find it convenient that you go down claiming that something never comes from nothing, but make one exception for the eternal, had-no-creator, god that you believe in. If you are willing to make an exception to the rule there, why is it impossible to make an exception elsewhere. Why couldn't the matter and energy be eternal like you originally dismissed. What if the energy and matter are god? Have you ever considered that as a possibility?

Click to expand...

So I have one question. When do you put this singularity? Because of space-time, matter and time have to go together. This means that a singularity would have to be placed in a point in time. If this singularity always existed, we would be ever falling backwards in time to reach "infinite backwards". This is obviously not the case since we there is a "now". Therefore, even if a singularity existed(even if it were infinitely massive like a black hole), it would still have to be placed in time.

Girder of Loins said:

So I have one question. When do you put this singularity? Because of space-time, matter and time have to go together. This means that a singularity would have to be placed in a point in time. If this singularity always existed, we would be ever falling backwards in time to reach "infinite backwards". This is obviously not the case since we there is a "now". Therefore, even if a singularity existed(even if it were infinitely massive like a black hole), it would still have to be placed in time.

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I don't know the specifics for I am not a physicist but just an engineer with a deep interest in physics. But what I know is that there was something that eventually became everything else, not exactly matter or energy but the necessary stuff to make it. I will need to read more before I can answer you properly.

Also, I would very much appreciate if you didn't ignore the rest of my post, especially the question that I had bolded near the bottom of my post. A question directed directly towards you.

Bordamere said:

I don't know the specifics for I am not a physicist but just an engineer with a deep interest in physics. But what I know is that there was something that eventually became everything else, not exactly matter or energy but the necessary stuff to make it. I will need to read more before I can answer you properly.

Also, I would very much appreciate if you didn't ignore the rest of my post, especially the question that I had bolded near the bottom of my post. A question directed directly towards you.

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Sorry, my computer is stupid and cuts off some people's post.

Well, if matter and energy are God, then that means you and I are God. I'm gonna start using God as god so confusion between God and the hypothetical god does not arise.

We all have different views on life, weather something is beautiful, weather a certain dinner was tasty. We also have different views on some of the bigger questions. You and I are debating right now on the beginnings of the universe. There is a law called the Law of non-contradiction, which basically states that two opposites cannot be true at the same time(unless the truth is relative like tastiness). Therefore, if we were both god, that god cannot be contradictory like we are right now. Therefore we cannot be gods.

Good question.
There was this trivial episode in Discovery Channel that scientifically explains the universe's creation with Stephen Hawkings as the man featured in that episode. In that episode, I was having a mixed reaction because I for one am a Man of Faith and a Man of Science. Mixed because he always negate the existance of God, despite the obvious truths behind creation.
Curiosity Videos: Did God create the universe? - Curiosity

I saw several "plot holes" in his argument regarding about this time and space origin and also this "dark energy" stuffs, IMMSMR (if my memory serves me right), "If there is no time, then there is nothing. If there is nothing, then ther is no God". I disapprove this, for God existed EVEN before time existed. In my point of view, the creation of time and space within this unmeasurable timespan is like a man who created and programmed a really enormous supercomputer that is consistent and never altering any single bit. Like how all things are consistent in our world today with the laws of nature, like how gravity works, like how magnetic to biological laws behave. These laws themselves tells us that Somebody implemented these laws so that things behave consistently as they should be.

Like how engineers and programmers engineer and program iPads, computers cellular telephones, televisions, VHS/ VCD/ DVD/ BD players to the most advanced machinery ever made with such. Look at how each writers create their own universe with their characters being created and developed and laws that are implemented. Fiction itself tells us that it cannot exist without a writer and a publisher. Similarly, how biological/ medical and pharmacological scientists discover and create drugs and other stuffs that are good to the body.. So why do not we acknowledge that this reality that we are living in a universe created by God in a higher way?

We know by faith...

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

As far as insight that could topple any academic, philosophical or intellectual debate against God for ever...it is not rendered unto us like this.

Read: The Cloud of Unknowing

The Cloud of Unknowing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^Yep! Faith is all it takes to leap to what is considered unknown.

Side note: Oh geez! Whoops! My age doesn't fit here in this index.

Most of people nowadays believe that sciences proves that God doesnt exist... In my opinion that's why people stop believing in God... But that's not true.Science does not prove such thing. Religion answers the question '' Who created the universe''. On the other hand Science answers the question ''How the universe was created'' and ''How does it work''.Many people say ... we are evlolution from monkeys ... and you know what? Yes we are the evolution of monkeys. This is how god created us. The seven days of god's creation is actually thousands of years.A day for god is eternity my friends.

Someone already gave an incredibly shortened Aquinas argument, and you already said you understand the logic, so the rest is just following the most logical conclusion.

A Christian writer states:

"Human beings are creatures of faith. Our secular society would deny this by pointing to the secularization process as a turn from religion, a loss of faith. However, I would argue that the ultimate direction of the life of humankind is directed by faith. Modernity itself can be characterized as a growing faith or ultimate trust of humankind in autonomous reason, science, and technology to lead to materially prosperous and free society. Faith is trusting in something to give ultimate meaning and direction to our lives. It is our ultimate commitments that give shape to our lives. And since we live as communal creatures our faith is shared. Our ultimate commitments are not simply the possession of a single individual but are collectively and communally held. It is these ultimate faith commitments that give rise to a worldview or a collectively held vision of life that guides, shapes, integrates, and sustains a human cultural community.

If faith is not anchored in the living Creator God as revealed in Jesus Christ as light for the human condition, that faith will focus on an object within creation. Human beings are predisposed by their very nature to search to look for some particular aspect or object of their experience which will provide meaning and integration. This is idolatry. In western culture this faith commitment has been placed in the idols of autonomous reason, science, technology, and economic growth as those aspects of experience that will give meaning and direction to life. Western culture has, for centuries, been shaped by a faith commitment to these areas of creation. This faith commitment has provided the light for human society for several centuries.

Both the religious and non religious live by faith.

John
NZ

Azureknight 773 said:

Good question.
There was this trivial episode in Discovery Channel that scientifically explains the universe's creation with Stephen Hawkings as the man featured in that episode. In that episode, I was having a mixed reaction because I for one am a Man of Faith and a Man of Science. Mixed because he always negate the existance of God, despite the obvious truths behind creation.
Curiosity Videos: Did God create the universe? - Curiosity

I saw several "plot holes" in his argument regarding about this time and space origin and also this "dark energy" stuffs, IMMSMR (if my memory serves me right), "If there is no time, then there is nothing. If there is nothing, then ther is no God". I disapprove this, for God existed EVEN before time existed. In my point of view, the creation of time and space within this unmeasurable timespan is like a man who created and programmed a really enormous supercomputer that is consistent and never altering any single bit. Like how all things are consistent in our world today with the laws of nature, like how gravity works, like how magnetic to biological laws behave. These laws themselves tells us that Somebody implemented these laws so that things behave consistently as they should be.

Like how engineers and programmers engineer and program iPads, computers cellular telephones, televisions, VHS/ VCD/ DVD/ BD players to the most advanced machinery ever made with such. Look at how each writers create their own universe with their characters being created and developed and laws that are implemented. Fiction itself tells us that it cannot exist without a writer and a publisher. Similarly, how biological/ medical and pharmacological scientists discover and create drugs and other stuffs that are good to the body.. So why do not we acknowledge that this reality that we are living in a universe created by God in a higher way?

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I disagree with quite a bit of this.

Azureknight 773 said:

In my point of view, the creation of time and space within this unmeasurable timespan is like a man who created and programmed a really enormous supercomputer that is consistent and never altering any single bit.

Click to expand...

But time and space do alter. According to the general theory of relativity, when you approach the speed of light time stops (for you). This has been demonstrated using two synchonised atomic clocks. One was left on the ground and the other was put in a jet and flown around for a bit. When they compared the two clocks, the one which was in the jet was fractions of a second behind the other.

Azureknight 773 said:

Like how all things are consistent in our world today with the laws of nature, like how gravity works, like how magnetic to biological laws behave. These laws themselves tells us that Somebody implemented these laws so that things behave consistently as they should be.

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Unfortunately, you can't really say that because we still haven't solved the Higgs-Boson problem yet. When we do, and if there is something inexplicable that we find there that contradicts the laws of physics, you may be entitled to suggest Yahweh is there. But this is the god-of-the-gaps argument again. Just because we don't know what's going on doesn't mean goddidit.

Azureknight 773 said:

Like how engineers and programmers engineer and program iPads, computers cellular telephones, televisions, VHS/ VCD/ DVD/ BD players to the most advanced machinery ever made with such. Look at how each writers create their own universe with their characters being created and developed and laws that are implemented. Fiction itself tells us that it cannot exist without a writer and a publisher. Similarly, how biological/ medical and pharmacological scientists discover and create drugs and other stuffs that are good to the body.. So why do not we acknowledge that this reality that we are living in a universe created by God in a higher way?

Click to expand...

Ah, the design argument. One of my favourites.

The thing is, how can you tell those marvels of technology are designed if everything else is designed too? What makes them stand out? Each of these things is designed for a specific function. Sometimes multiple functions. But what is the purpose of a meteorite? A planet? Jupiter does mop up most of the asteroids that would hit us, but that could be ascribed to chance. After all, consider how many billions of solar systems there are out there. One of them is bound to have the necessary conditions to support life. If Yahweh really did exist, and he designed our reality, I would expect to see every solar system have life inhabiting it. I would expect humans to not get sick, because they're so well-designed. I would expect amputees to offer up a prayer for Yahweh to restore their limbs, and then receiving them.

But I do not see any of these things. There may be a creator. I don't know. But it sure doesn't look like it. And I can say with certainty that the Judeo-Christian god, the one who handed out miracles left right and centre two thousand years ago and then stopped, doesn't exist.

However, what you believe is up to you. But I'd like to make one very important request. When you have children, educate them about the other side of the argument. Let them make up their own minds. Give them the facts and nothing more.

Fotis Greece said:

Most of people nowadays believe that sciences proves that God doesnt exist... In my opinion that's why people stop believing in God... But that's not true.Science does not prove such thing. Religion answers the question '' Who created the universe''. On the other hand Science answers the question ''How the universe was created'' and ''How does it work''.Many people say ... we are evlolution from monkeys ... and you know what? Yes we are the evolution of monkeys. This is how god created us. The seven days of god's creation is actually thousands of years.A day for god is eternity my friends.

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I like this post. I take my hat off to you.

I simply can't stand people who misrepresent science, and feel the need to lie for their god. You have accurately said that science can't prove god doesn't exist. This is true, only mathematicians are licensed to prove anything. We can't always be sure of what we observe.

I think the likelihood of there being an intelligent creator is slim. However, if you think that evolution is Yahweh's mechanism for creating us, there's evidence in the bible to support you. In Genesis, it says "God caused the earth to give rise to plants and animals" (not exact quote, doing it from memory). That is roughly, very roughly, what abiogenesis sort of says. Mind you, the bible also says Yahweh created Adam from dirt, and evolution theory postulates there was never a first man, but you can see it as a metaphor, I guess.

Forge3 said:

We know by faith...

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

As far as insight that could topple any academic, philosophical or intellectual debate against God for ever...it is not rendered unto us like this.

Read: The Cloud of Unknowing

The Cloud of Unknowing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Click to expand...

Yes, but why don't you have faith in the Hindu gods? The Greek gods? The Norse gods?

I think the idea of a team of creators makes a lot more sense than one omnipotent being. Can Yahweh build a pile of bricks he cannot lift?

Also, I like Valhalla, the Norse heaven. You spawn in the feasting hall, eat and drink your fill, then run outside into battle, fight, die, repeat. It's really awesome. Much more interesting than your idea of heaven. And Thor is pretty cool, too.

So, why Yahweh? He's the least logical choice and he's really jealous and vindictive (throwing Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, flooding the world, asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac etc.)

So, why Yahweh? He's the least logical choice and he's really jealous and vindictive (throwing Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, flooding the world, asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac etc.)[/quote]

Well Yahweh is not vindictive my friend.The trhrowing of Adam an Eve out of the Garden... was actually the plan of God. God did want to throw us out.So that have the choice to folow him or not.Inside the Garden of Eden ... we didn't have the free will. So... we ate the fruit of knowledge...With the fruit of knowledge we can understand evil and goodness and choose between them. So it was not about vindictiveness but real care and love.

Corke said:

So, why Yahweh? He's the least logical choice and he's really jealous and vindictive (throwing Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, flooding the world, asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac etc.)

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"throwing out of the Garden..." If you think about it, that was pretty merciful (hear me out) In the Garden, there were many trees there (1 of which was the tree of life which allowed immortality) which we could eat of. By the time Adam ate the fruit, humans (supposedly) didn't eat of the tree, so they would eventually die. When they were cast out of the Garden so as not to eat of the fruit of immortality, they were only exposed to earth for the rest of their long lives.

"flooding the world" is extremely simplistic and almost out of context (again, hear me out) the whole story is that the whole world was corrupt by so much sin, and Noah's immediate family were the ones who were the most holy (set apart for God) whom God spared.

"asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac" while on the face value, Abraham was going to do it, it was a sign of Abraham's faith in YHVH. He had so much faith that, perhaps, He could revive Isaac or give to him another son to fulfill the promise of making him a nation and his children as numerous as the amounts of sand and stars. But ultimately, it was God testing Abraham's faith for Abe's good. God knew he'd have faith, which is why He sent the angel to stop it.

While these ref's are in the Bible, they seem very simplistic! not sure if you meant it that way or if that's really what you got out of it.