How do people who are "unconditionally loved" end up in hell?

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
The issue to me is that God says He loves us
All unconditionally and you are using hell as an example that could not be true.

Sorry I believe God’s Word.

Also, I will repeat again, what is ludacris to me is that sinful humans think that we understand what Love is
For God Him being perfect and of perfect love

If you want to see God, study Jesus
Love

You really need to follow your own advice. I believe God's Word and you come against me. You told me to study the very Jesus whose own words and prayer you just rejected. I will continue to study Jesus. You may want to do the same and then reconcile what you think about God with what you find in that study.

Jesus prayed to the Father: "...I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given me; for they are yours." (John 17:9) He could have prayed for the whole world. He didn't. Why?

It was Jesus who addressed the churches in Revelation, not me. He didn't say God loved everyone anywhere and showed John a picture of many He Himself would slay when He returns (Rev 19:15-21). In Revelation 6:9, we see a picture of those "slain for the Word of God and for the testimony they held." They asked God how long until He judged and "avenged their blood on them that dwell on the earth?" They weren't told "you miss interpret who I AM. I love everyone and they are all coming to heaven." Instead, they were clothed in white robes and told they should "rest yet for a little season until the rest of their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." (Rev 6:10-11).

Where did God say that He loves every person, unconditionally? He does say "For God so loved the world...." He does say God loved US with a "great love"; but nowhere does it say God loves all men unconditionally in Scripture. And, the fact that not everyone will be found in heaven proves that. If God loved unconditionally like you believe, then everyone would be found in heaven regardless of what they believed. A consequence given before eternity would be able to teach and thus could result in a different eternal outcome for an individual. A consequence given when you can no longer change is not a consequence given with a hope of repentance. That is punishment. You cannot love what you are subjecting to unrelenting permanent punishment.

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
You really need to follow your own advice. I believe God's Word and you come against me. You told me to study the very Jesus whose own words and prayer you just rejected. I will continue to study Jesus. You may want to do the same and then reconcile what you think about God with what you find in that study.

Jesus prayed to the Father: "...I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given me; for they are yours." (John 17:9) He could have prayed for the whole world. He didn't. Why?

It was Jesus who addressed the churches in Revelation, not me. He didn't say God loved everyone anywhere and showed John a picture of many He Himself would slay when He returns (Rev 19:15-21). In Revelation 6:9, we see a picture of those "slain for the Word of God and for the testimony they held." They asked God how long until He judged and "avenged their blood on them that dwell on the earth?" They weren't told "you miss interpret who I AM. I love everyone and they are all coming to heaven." Instead, they were clothed in white robes and told they should "rest yet for a little season until the rest of their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." (Rev 6:10-11).

Where did God say that He loves every person, unconditionally? He does say "For God so loved the world...." He does say God loved US with a "great love"; but nowhere does it say God loves all men unconditionally in Scripture. And, the fact that not everyone will be found in heaven proves that. If God loved unconditionally like you believe, then everyone would be found in heaven regardless of what they believed. A consequence given before eternity would be able to teach and thus could result in a different eternal outcome for an individual. A consequence given when you can no longer change is not a consequence given with a hope of repentance. That is punishment. You cannot love what you are subjecting to unrelenting permanent punishment.

And Jesus prayed to God about Himself, in the verses right before. So what?

Jesus was about to be crucified. He was talking to God about the reasurection and those He would leave behind.

Jesus prayed about a lot of things and prayer about one thing doesn’t exclude other prayers that He prayed during His life.

You must have a better set of verses.

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
You really need to follow your own advice. I believe God's Word and you come against me. You told me to study the very Jesus whose own words and prayer you just rejected. I will continue to study Jesus. You may want to do the same and then reconcile what you think about God with what you find in that study.

Jesus prayed to the Father: "...I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given me; for they are yours." (John 17:9) He could have prayed for the whole world. He didn't. Why?

It was Jesus who addressed the churches in Revelation, not me. He didn't say God loved everyone anywhere and showed John a picture of many He Himself would slay when He returns (Rev 19:15-21). In Revelation 6:9, we see a picture of those "slain for the Word of God and for the testimony they held." They asked God how long until He judged and "avenged their blood on them that dwell on the earth?" They weren't told "you miss interpret who I AM. I love everyone and they are all coming to heaven." Instead, they were clothed in white robes and told they should "rest yet for a little season until the rest of their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." (Rev 6:10-11).

Where did God say that He loves every person, unconditionally? He does say "For God so loved the world...." He does say God loved US with a "great love"; but nowhere does it say God loves all men unconditionally in Scripture. And, the fact that not everyone will be found in heaven proves that. If God loved unconditionally like you believe, then everyone would be found in heaven regardless of what they believed. A consequence given before eternity would be able to teach and thus could result in a different eternal outcome for an individual. A consequence given when you can no longer change is not a consequence given with a hope of repentance. That is punishment. You cannot love what you are subjecting to unrelenting permanent punishment.

As far as your Revelation verse every apostle was martyred.

So surely your argument cannot be that if God loves them they would not have been martyred?

Christ when in front of Pilate when asked if Be as the King of the Jews said that His Kingdom is not of this world. iF His Kingdom was of this world, His disciples would fight to keep Him in this world.

So Christ valued His Kingdom as being after
Death. Not life here on earth

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 22, 2017

Almost there said:
I'd like to address that part separately. I believe that God is very clear from Genesis three on that His desire is to have an eternal relationship, but the wages of sin is death. It is exactly what he warned Adam would happen if he did what he ended up doing. And that is exactly what Jesus "undid" for all who accept his free gift. He restores us to our creator and eliminates death. No more is needed.

And just scaring the crap out of people to bring them to God is never a methodology used by Jesus or the apostles. Check out Acts 2 to get a feel for how they approached it. Nowhere does Jesus (or the apostles) try to scare us into conversion. It is all about love and desire. If one is in church only because they believe but are scared of ECT, they are no different than the demons that believe, and tremble.

But it fills pews.

And to make matters worse, and get to why I'm so actively opposed to the ECT message: When "anti" Christians start threads against Christianity hear and there on the net, they virtually always point out the lunacy of the "loving God that tortures most of humanity for all eternity in ways even hitler and pol pot never thought of." And here is the amazing part: When I try to tell them that is not what the bible says about God, it becomes imperative to them to argue that that IS what the bible teaches.

i.e. those that hate Christianity find it extremely important to argue vehemently that the bible teaches ECT. If that is not the truth, it destroys their whole narrative. I find that rather fascinating.

I appreciate our conversation. If I am wrong, I certainly would like to find out and be able to repent on this side of eternity. In contrast to you, I see more filling of the pews being filled and catering to rich folk today happening on the basis of "unconditional love" rather than out of fear of hell. I don't base my theology on what people will like or what will sabotage unbelievers claims. I base my theology on what God says in Scripture.

Why do I believe in a loving God who does allow those who choose against Him to suffer eternal torment and those you speak of don't? Because I believe in Him and they don't. Does God need us to sweeten the pot, because His arm is too short to save those He gave to Jesus? It isn't my word that cursed men after Adam's sin. It isn't my word that redeemed man. It isn't me that caused the great flood or me that provided a way to save some and repopulate the world through them. It isn't me who shared my testimony through the prophets, nor me who declared myself to be a jealous god. It isn't me who allowed what happened to Job. And, it wasn't me who restored double to him. It wasn't me who wrote any of the words Jesus spoke. It wasn't me who wrote any of the letters to churches. It wasn't me who pronounced death on Ananias and Sophira for lying to the Holy Spirit. It wasn't me who chose Saul who was killing Christians to be miraculously converted. It wasn't me who allowed James to be killed while saving Peter and Paul from prison. It wasn't me who inspired Paul to write about people who refused to love the Truth being turned over to a great delusion (2 Thes 2) or me who spoke about people being deceived into receiving the mark of the beast (Rev 19:20) or me who turned people over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:28). It wasn't me who gave the Revelation to John. If God was worried about unbelievers having a warm fuzzy feeling about Him, He certainly could have chosen to reveal different things or blame someone else for those things. BUT, He didn't. John 6 is a great picture for me, because Jesus did everything opposite of man's way of "winning friends and influencing people." Then, He turns to the 12 and says: "Do you want to leave to?" Peter didn't respond "Never Jesus!" He said: "Where else would we go? We believe You have the words of eternal life and we believe and are sure that You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Then, Jesus, fresh off that affirmation from Peter says: "Have I not chose you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" Jesus clearly wasn't worried about not offending people. Jesus even said "No man can come to Me, expect it were given unto him of My Father."

See, I don't have to be on the defensive, because I know God. If they don't like the wrath part of God, how are they ever going to deal with what God says in Revelation? I know what His Scriptures say. And, if an unbeliever chooses to remain an unbeliever, because He doesn't like what God does, He is rejecting God's sovereignty and God's right to act however He decides. They are rejecting God as their god. In truth, the unbeliever is judging God. God gave him that choice; because God wants those who want to worship Him in spirit and truth. God also pre-taught consequences, if we will allow what The Word says to speak for Himself. God didn't have to provide an out for us. He chose to. We all deserve death and receiving His wrath. But, He did provide an out for all who will believe. God knows the heart. If people don't want to believe, then they deserve what they get. At some point, God will stop reaching out. He knows when that point comes. I don't. But 2 Thes 2:10-12 and Rom 1:18-32 are pretty clear that there is a point where what God is doing, according to Scripture, isn't designed to help those talked about repent and get right with Him.

Almost there · Nov 22, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I appreciate our conversation. If I am wrong, I certainly would like to find out and be able to repent on this side of eternity. In contrast to you, I see more filling of the pews being filled and catering to rich folk today happening on the basis of "unconditional love" rather than out of fear of hell. I don't base my theology on what people will like or what will sabotage unbelievers claims. I base my theology on what God says in Scripture.

Why do I believe in a loving God who does allow those who choose against Him to suffer eternal torment and those you speak of don't? Because I believe in Him and they don't. Does God need us to sweeten the pot, because His arm is too short to save those He gave to Jesus? It isn't my word that cursed men after Adam's sin. It isn't my word that redeemed man. It isn't me that caused the great flood or me that provided a way to save some and repopulate the world through them. It isn't me who shared my testimony through the prophets, nor me who declared myself to be a jealous god. It isn't me who allowed what happened to Job. And, it wasn't me who restored double to him. It wasn't me who wrote any of the words Jesus spoke. It wasn't me who wrote any of the letters to churches. It wasn't me who pronounced death on Ananias and Sophira for lying to the Holy Spirit. It wasn't me who chose Saul who was killing Christians to be miraculously converted. It wasn't me who allowed James to be killed while saving Peter and Paul from prison. It wasn't me who inspired Paul to write about people who refused to love the Truth being turned over to a great delusion (2 Thes 2) or me who spoke about people being deceived into receiving the mark of the beast (Rev 19:20) or me who turned people over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:28). It wasn't me who gave the Revelation to John. If God was worried about unbelievers having a warm fuzzy feeling about Him, He certainly could have chosen to reveal different things or blame someone else for those things. BUT, He didn't. John 6 is a great picture for me, because Jesus did everything opposite of man's way of "winning friends and influencing people." Then, He turns to the 12 and says: "Do you want to leave to?" Peter didn't respond "Never Jesus!" He said: "Where else would we go? We believe You have the words of eternal life and we believe and are sure that You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Then, Jesus, fresh off that affirmation from Peter says: "Have I not chose you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" Jesus clearly wasn't worried about not offending people. Jesus even said "No man can come to Me, expect it were given unto him of My Father."

See, I don't have to be on the defensive, because I know God. If they don't like the wrath part of God, how are they ever going to deal with what God says in Revelation? I know what His Scriptures say. And, if an unbeliever chooses to remain an unbeliever, because He doesn't like what God does, He is rejecting God's sovereignty and God's right to act however He decides. They are rejecting God as their god. In truth, the unbeliever is judging God. God gave him that choice; because God wants those who want to worship Him in spirit and truth. God also pre-taught consequences, if we will allow what The Word says to speak for Himself. God didn't have to provide an out for us. He chose to. We all deserve death and receiving His wrath. But, He did provide an out for all who will believe. God knows the heart. If people don't want to believe, then they deserve what they get. At some point, God will stop reaching out. He knows when that point comes. I don't. But 2 Thes 2:10-12 and Rom 1:18-32 are pretty clear that there is a point where what God is doing, according to Scripture, isn't designed to help those talked about repent and get right with Him.

This is interesting. One of the biggest reasons I almost literally JUMPED on the CI train from ECT is because the more I read the bible and lived a prayerful life, the less the personality of the God I was getting to know matched the ECT message, and the more it lined up with CI.

In fact, that is the primary motivator for me.

BTW, I agree with you on the prosperity doctrine stuff. I moved from Seattle to rural KY, where I visited a lot of smaller "poorer" churches in a southern gospel band. In affluent Seattle the heresy tends to be "God wants you rich, financially." In the poor areas of Kentucky the heresy is "come to church or burn, rot and be tortured in hell for all eternity."

At least the former group seems somewhat happy. The latter, though always there, is a quite sad and depressed lot. It's kinda weird. I'm speaking generally, though. It's just a general mood.

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2017

Almost there said:
This is interesting. One of the biggest reasons I almost literally JUMPED on the CI train from ECT is because the more I read the bible and lived a prayerful life, the less the personality of the God I was getting to know matched the ECT message, and the more it lined up with CI.

In fact, that is the primary motivator for me.

BTW, I agree with you on the prosperity doctrine stuff. I moved from Seattle to rural KY, where I visited a lot of smaller "poorer" churches in a southern gospel band. In affluent Seattle the heresy tends to be "God wants you rich, financially." In the poor areas of Kentucky the heresy is "come to church or burn, rot and be tortured in hell for all eternity."

At least the former group seems somewhat happy. The latter, though always there, is a quite sad and depressed lot. It's kinda weird. I'm speaking generally, though. It's just a general mood.

CI? Please define

Almost there · Nov 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
CI? Please define

Conditional Imortality. i.e. to receive eternal life, you must be born again. If you are not born again, you die. Twice. First the flesh, and then the soul. There is no spirit to live into eternity because you are not born again.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
And Jesus prayed to God about Himself, in the verses right before. So what?

Jesus was about to be crucified. He was talking to God about the reasurection and those He would leave behind.

Jesus prayed about a lot of things and prayer about one thing doesn’t exclude other prayers that He prayed during His life.

You must have a better set of verses.

See, you tell me you believe Scripture and I don't. But, you are downplaying the very words and prayer of Jesus. Jesus also said in the same prayer: "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word...." (John 17:20). So, the prayer wasn't only for those He was about to leave behind as you claimed and yet He expressly excluded the whole world in His prayer.

When your theology doesn't agree with Scripture, you have choices: (1) Discount or reject the Scripture that disagrees with your theology, (2) change the meaning of the Scripture to support your theology, or (3) change your theology to something that can account for all Scripture on the topic. I can't do that for you. But, your current position does not account for all Scripture.

Jesus said: "For whosoever shall be ashamed of Me and of My Words, of him shall the Son of Man be ashamed, when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's, and of the holy angels. (Luke 9:26/ Mar 8:38).

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2017

Almost there said:
Conditional Imortality. i.e. to receive eternal life, you must be born again. If you are not born again, you die. Twice. First the flesh, and then the soul. There is no spirit to live into eternity because you are not born again.

ok I guess. I try to not use terms not used in the Bible. I find denominational labels and wording to only confuse things.

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
See, you tell me you believe Scripture and I don't.

I didn't tell you you don't believe scripture.

I said if you believed scripture you would see God loves all.]

Now theology and correct theology lies in the middle.

So I'm asking you about verses and how you cannot believe verses where Christ said that He died for all men.

Almost there · Nov 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
ok I guess. I try to not use terms not used in the Bible. I find denominational labels and wording to only confuse things.

Since I see all English language translations as only interpretations of the original Greek and Hebrew, and even then based on different versions sometimes (it's why the KJV oddly has some stuff added that was not in the original transcripts) that I almost want to create my own translation. But I haven't the time. Meanwhile, I have no problem using words that are not in my English bibles. After all, words are just symbols and everyone that speaks or writes to others about the bible uses words that are not actually in the bible.

The only time one needs to use only the words that are in the bible is when they say they are quoting it.

Almost there · Nov 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
I didn't tell you you don't believe scripture.

I said if you believed scripture you would see God loves all.]

Now theology and correct theology lies in the middle.

So I'm asking you about verses and how you cannot believe verses where Christ said that He died for all men.

I had an argument with someone in my church about a particular teaching on which we disagree. He was not very schooled in that particular teaching, but strongly believed what he believed. I was trying to be nice and focus on scripture, but it soon became apparent that he had no arguments against what I was saying and, finally, with face red, he held up his big King James bible and said, "I believe what is written in God's word!"

I said, "Me too. Where we disagree is on interpretation.". He stormed out of the room. It was very frustrating. It was like listening to Ben Shapiro argue with one of those college students at his events. I had to leave that church because nobody there (not one person) had the background to intelligently discuss the topics that are important to me - and I didn't want to be a source of contention within the church.

A gentlement who attended a large Louisville church that had a lot of attendees who were professors at a nearby Christian university said something rather interesting to me one day. He said, "I've found that the more someone has studied scripture, the less sure they are of their position on any of the peripheral beliefs within Christendom.

And I'll say I've found the opposite is also true in the bible belt: The less someone has studied scripture, the more sure they are they are right, about even the least important of Christian beliefs. And that is a textbook example of dogmatism.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
As far as your Revelation verse every apostle was martyred.

So surely your argument cannot be that if God loves them they would not have been martyred?

Nope. If you read what I said with any intent on understanding where I was coming from, you wouldn't conclude that. Clearly, you don't want to try to understand what I am saying. I share Scripture verses. You share your opinion, based on your theology which I have already said is not in accordance with Scripture.

Christ when in front of Pilate when asked if Be as the King of the Jews said that His Kingdom is not of this world. If His Kingdom was of this world, His disciples would fight to keep Him in this world.

Yes, Jesus said: "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from here." (John 18:36) And, when His disciple, Peter, thought he was supposed to fight with the swords Jesus told them to get (Luke 22:36, 38), Jesus chastised him and healed the ear of the man (Matt 26:52). But, Jesus also said: Go you into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that does not believe shall be damned. And these signs shall follow those who believe: In My Name, they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues, they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." After He spoke that, He was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mar 16:19) "And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs following. Amen" (Mar 16:20)

So Christ valued His Kingdom as being after
Death. Not life here on earth

Christ valued what His kingdom would be after His death; but His kingdom is expanding already--not just after our deaths. And, I, too, look forward to what He promised me after life here on earth ends; but, Jesus' kingdom is already (since He died and was resurrected). I agree that the new heaven and new earth is after judgment. But, I don't agree that His kingdom is only after death. I am not a prosperity gospel person, either; but that is more a factor of what I see in the original ekklesia, as our best examples.

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
Christ valued what His kingdom would be after His death; but His kingdom is expanding already--not just after our deaths. And, I, too, look forward to what He promised me after life here on earth ends; but, Jesus' kingdom is already (since He died and was resurrected). I agree that the new heaven and new earth is after judgment. But, I don't agree that His kingdom is only after death. I am not a prosperity gospel person, either; but that is more a factor of what I see in the original ekklesia, as our best examples.

Can we stay on topic please.

You said that God conditionally loves because some die horrible deaths. I said, not true because all of the apostles were martyred and Jesus lived, walked and loved all of them personally.

So can you please address that and not change the subject. We are going off in too many directions here.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 22, 2017

Almost there said:
This is interesting. One of the biggest reasons I almost literally JUMPED on the CI train from ECT is because the more I read the bible and lived a prayerful life, the less the personality of the God I was getting to know matched the ECT message, and the more it lined up with CI.

In fact, that is the primary motivator for me.

When God woke me up, it was in spite of a church, not because of (1) people failing to mention hell, (2) people preaching prosperity, or (3) people telling me I'd go to hell if I didn't. When God woke me up, outside of the visible church, one of the directions He gave me was to reach those who aren't going where they think they are. But, it was never to focus on bribing or threatening. This post never was designed to be about hell. It was more an attack on what I believe is the false doctrine of "unconditional love of God for all men."

I don't believe God wants people to come to him out of fear or to come because of a promise of personal wealth. I believe God really wants a relationship with those who willfully choose to be in a relationship with Him--our Creator--even when it could cost them everything to do so.

BTW, I agree with you on the prosperity doctrine stuff. I moved from Seattle to rural KY, where I visited a lot of smaller "poorer" churches in a southern gospel band. In affluent Seattle the heresy tends to be "God wants you rich, financially." In the poor areas of Kentucky the heresy is "come to church or burn, rot and be tortured in hell for all eternity."

At least the former group seems somewhat happy. The latter, though always there, is a quite sad and depressed lot. It's kinda weird. I'm speaking generally, though. It's just a general mood.

I don't know if the happiness or the depression had anything to do with what God did for them. In both cases, it might just be based on their fleshly situation. It is certainly easier to be happy when you have plenty and feel more in control of your life. Paul talked about learning to be happy both in times of abundance and in times of need.

Almost there · Nov 22, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I don't know if the happiness or the depression had anything to do with what God did for them. In both cases, it might just be based on their fleshly situation. It is certainly easier to be happy when you have plenty and feel more in control of your life. Paul talked about learning to be happy both in times of abundance and in times of need.

Good point. I have to admit that it's not all misery at those churches, but there just seems to be a lot of it. There is so much "Woe is me" stuff that I just want to get out of there.

I've actually unfriended some of my acquaintances I picked up on Facebook since I moved to KY because all they seem to talk about is their latest tragedy, sickness, etc. And so much of it is self inflicted.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Can we stay on topic please.

You said that God conditionally loves because some die horrible deaths. I said, not true because all of the apostles were martyred and Jesus lived, walked and loved all of them personally.

So can you please address that and not change the subject. We are going off in too many directions here.

You are confused. I never said that. You keep accusing me of saying things I never have. I said God loves individual man conditionally, because some go to eternal punishment. Please quote what I said, so I can see where you are claiming these things from.

Regarding the Apostles, you have forgotten judas iscariot. He was one of the 12--the one Jesus Himself referred to as a devil. And, Jesus said He lost none of those given Him--EXCEPT the son of perdition (in that same prayer to the Father in John 17). I never referred to the Apostles' deaths as somehow saying that God didn't love them. Stephen got to see an open heaven with Jesus STANDING right before Stephen was stoned to death. Nobody could EVER convince me that God didn't love Peter and John and Stephen and Paul, etc; so I would never say that. The Father loves no man more than He loves His only begotten Son, and yet His Son was allowed to suffer immensely for those of us who would come to Him.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 22, 2017

Almost there said:
Good point. I have to admit that it's not all misery at those churches, but there just seems to be a lot of it. There is so much "Woe is me" stuff that I just want to get out of there.

I've actually unfriended some of my acquaintances I picked up on Facebook since I moved to KY because all they seem to talk about is their latest tragedy, sickness, etc. And so much of it is self inflicted.

Almost there said:
I had an argument with someone in my church about a particular teaching on which we disagree. He was not very schooled in that particular teaching, but strongly believed what he believed. I was trying to be nice and focus on scripture, but it soon became apparent that he had no arguments against what I was saying and, finally, with face red, he held up his big King James bible and said, "I believe what is written in God's word!"

I said, "Me too. Where we disagree is on interpretation.". He stormed out of the room. It was very frustrating. It was like listening to Ben Shapiro argue with one of those college students at his events. I had to leave that church because nobody there (not one person) had the background to intelligently discuss the topics that are important to me - and I didn't want to be a source of contention within the church.

A gentlement who attended a large Louisville church that had a lot of attendees who were professors at a nearby Christian university said something rather interesting to me one day. He said, "I've found that the more someone has studied scripture, the less sure they are of their position on any of the peripheral beliefs within Christendom.

And I'll say I've found the opposite is also true in the bible belt: The less someone has studied scripture, the more sure they are they are right, about even the least important of Christian beliefs. And that is a textbook example of dogmatism.

Before God came into my life, I didn't care what anyone said and would have been happy to agree on any opinion, because I wasn't invested at all! I have heard people speak who claim the same relationship with God and believe opposite things. How on earth can an undivided God be leading two people who both claim to be in a relationship with Him in opposite directions? Or is it that one or both of them, maybe to varying extents, aren't getting what they are believing from God?

Almost there · Nov 22, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
Before God came into my life, I didn't care what anyone said and would have been happy to agree on any opinion, because I wasn't invested at all! I have heard people speak who claim the same relationship with God and believe opposite things. How on earth can an undivided God be leading two people who both claim to be in a relationship with Him in opposite directions? Or is it that one or both of them, maybe to varying extents, aren't getting what they are believing from God?

Even the apostles had strong differences of opinion. There is some interesting stuff along those lines in Acts. I have had this same disagreement with other believers and it is very friendly. This overt dogmatism thing is rare and bothers me when I see it.

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
You really need to follow your own advice. I believe God's Word and you come against me. You told me to study the very Jesus whose own words and prayer you just rejected. I will continue to study Jesus. You may want to do the same and then reconcile what you think about God with what you find in that study.

Jesus prayed to the Father: "...I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given me; for they are yours." (John 17:9) He could have prayed for the whole world. He didn't. Why?

It was Jesus who addressed the churches in Revelation, not me. He didn't say God loved everyone anywhere and showed John a picture of many He Himself would slay when He returns (Rev 19:15-21). In Revelation 6:9, we see a picture of those "slain for the Word of God and for the testimony they held." They asked God how long until He judged and "avenged their blood on them that dwell on the earth?" They weren't told "you miss interpret who I AM. I love everyone and they are all coming to heaven." Instead, they were clothed in white robes and told they should "rest yet for a little season until the rest of their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." (Rev 6:10-11).

Where did God say that He loves every person, unconditionally? He does say "For God so loved the world...." He does say God loved US with a "great love"; but nowhere does it say God loves all men unconditionally in Scripture. And, the fact that not everyone will be found in heaven proves that. If God loved unconditionally like you believe, then everyone would be found in heaven regardless of what they believed. A consequence given before eternity would be able to teach and thus could result in a different eternal outcome for an individual. A consequence given when you can no longer change is not a consequence given with a hope of repentance. That is punishment. You cannot love what you are subjecting to unrelenting permanent punishment.

I'm not sure that we understand the word love in the same way.

Have you or are you a parent?

People use parent hood as an example because it is the greatest example that most human beings will ever have of unconditional love.

Maybe you've never experienced it.

A basic, deep love does not go away because another does not do as you like.

How do people who are "unconditionally loved" end up in hell?

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