How do people who are "unconditionally loved" end up in hell?

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 20, 2017

War_Eagle said:
First, this is a logical fallacy commonly known as "begging the question". That is, your question is based on the premise that God loves all men unconditionally.

Second, your question fails to take into account the fact that there are different kinds of love and that love, itself, does not mean one does not recognize or one in authority does not punish illegal acts.

Third, your question assumes that God loves men to the exclusion of everything else. The Bible tells us that God also loves Holiness, Righteousness, Justice, and His law.

Men God loves end up in Hell the same way anybody ends up in Hell: They die in their sin, without Christ's atonement applied to them.

War Eagle:

(1) It isn't a logical fallacy to ask that question, because I am outright questioning what I consider to be a lie and the obvious problem with that lie (everlasting punishment with no chance of parole). I don't believe God loves everyone unconditionally, nor do I believe He has to. I am asking those who claim that He does, and therefore are leading others down a path that inevitably leads them toward the lie of universalism and doubting the Words of Jesus Himself.
(2) I understand there are different kinds of love. I am not the one who "changed" God's love to unconditional love. And, one in authority can love those under them and discipline/chastise them with a hope of rehabilitation. One in authority will never love an individual they are permanently punishing without a hope of rehabilitation.
(3) No, I wasn't assuming that, as I noted above.
(4) This is where you and I disagree. God cannot love someone He condemns to eternal unrelenting punishment (nor does He have to), even if they were 100% responsible for their own decision. He created the place and He ordained the consequence for "rejecting the His testimony of His Son and therefore calling Him a liar." They choose against the God I love, and He condemns them to eternal unrelenting punishment. He is sovereign. He says He is a jealous God. They have been warned. In 2 Thes 2 and Romans 1, He even talks about what happens if people continue to reject the knowledge of Him.

War_Eagle · Nov 20, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
War Eagle:

(1) It isn't a logical fallacy to ask that question

Nobody said it is. I said that begging the question is a logical fallacy.

Do you know what "begging the question" means?

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 20, 2017

War_Eagle said:
Nobody said it is. I said that begging the question is a logical fallacy.

Do you know what "begging the question" means?

Begging the question, sometimes known by its Latin name petitio principii (meaning assuming the initial point), is a logical fallacy in which the writer or speaker assumes the statement under examination to be true. In other words, begging the questioninvolves using a premise to support itself.
Begging the question (fallacy) - Grammarist

As I said before I am questioning whether or not God gives unconditional love to all men. I am not assuming it. Scripture says people will end up in hell. Scripture does not say that "God loves every individual unconditionally. I am questioning individuals who think God loves unconditionally to explain why He would allow for a hell and allow for men (that He would have to love, if He loves uncondtionally) to go to permanent torturous punishment without the potential of parole. I love God. I think He has that right, as Sovereign God. But, He has also very clear

Phil 1:21 · Nov 20, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
If God unconditionally and individually loves all men,

Where does scripture state such a thing?

Almost there · Nov 20, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
People don't really choose heaven or hell. They choose to believe or disbelief in the God of the Bible, and more specificially, His testimony about Jesus Christ (1 John 5:10) who is the only Way to the Father. If God unconditionally and individually loves all men, then how do "unconditionally loved" people end up in hell for all eternity?

(I am not a universalist and I believe what Jesus said about hell.)

You are actually discussing two separate issues. First, do people have the right to choose? The answer is yes, God gives us not only the right but the responsibility. So, on that one, I agree with you. People don't choose heaven or hell. Rather, they choose to accept Jesus free gift of eternal life with him. They are "born again" of the spirit - which carries with it the promise of immortality with Him.

But the second question's answer is a different thing. If they choose against Jesus' saving grace, they live the "ecclesiastes" life. i.e. They spend the gift of life eating and drinking and enjoying the fruit of their labor - and then they die, like all other created animals. The human meat they occupy dies in the first death and the soul dies in the second death. Romans 6:23 and John 3:16 cover it pretty clearly. And since they are not born again (of the spirit) there is nothing there to continue into eternity.

This covers it pretty well: Jewishnotgreek.com

The bible never presents it as "heaven vs hell". It presents it as "eternal life vs death". And when the bible says "death", what it actually means is, well, "death".

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 20, 2017

Phil 1:21 said:
Where does scripture state such a thing?

It doesn't. But there are many who wrongfully claim it.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 21, 2017

Almost there said:
You are actually discussing two separate issues. First, do people have the right to choose? The answer is yes, God gives us not only the right but the responsibility. So, on that one, I agree with you. People don't choose heaven or hell. Rather, they choose to accept Jesus free gift of eternal life with him. They are "born again" of the spirit - which carries with it the promise of immortality with Him.

I agree with you that God has allowed us to have the right to choose, though without His prevenient love (not only collectively through the Cross, but individually), we would all be toast. Thankfully, God chose to intervene in my life and I didn't remain sentenced by my bad choices.

I'm not sure they even get to the point of choosing "eternal life". I think it is more simple. They are choosing between more basic questions: (1) that there is a real God (who is sovereign), that there are many gods--who are sovereign over their real estate--that fight, or that there is no God; (2) If they believe there is only one real sovereign God, then which one? Each religion tells them different things happen, so depending on whose "Bible" they believe, the outcomes and their ability to control their own outcome varies. NOTE: Only if they accept that the God of the Christian Bible is the Sovereign God, will they subscribe to the Christian Bible. NOTE #2: Regarding salvation, "The Free Gift", and the consequences for our actions: There are people who claim to believe in (claim to have chosen) the God of the Christian Bible who either don't really know what it says in Scripture, are deceived by others into misinterpreting it, or read into it based on preconceived notions. As a result, some believe, by grace, they can just float along without any responsibility for what they do; others think they have to follow a new set of laws; and there are many variations between the two extremes. NOTE #3: Some who claim to have chosen the God of the Bible, don't even believe there is a hell and others that don't believe any humans will be there, despite what Jesus said. I am one who believes that it doesn't matter what you believe, it won't change the reality that what Jesus said is Truth and there not only is a hell, but it is a place that people will go, because they rejected God's testimony of His Son, in effect calling Him a liar (according to Scripture).

But the second question's answer is a different thing. If they choose against Jesus' saving grace, they live the "ecclesiastes" life. i.e. They spend the gift of life eating and drinking and enjoying the fruit of their labor - and then they die, like all other created animals. The human meat they occupy dies in the first death and the soul dies in the second death. Romans 6:23 and John 3:16 cover it pretty clearly. And since they are not born again (of the spirit) there is nothing there to continue into eternity.

This covers it pretty well: Jewishnotgreek.com

The bible never presents it as "heaven vs hell". It presents it as "eternal life vs death". And when the bible says "death", what it actually means is, well, "death".

I disagree with you on that. The Bible very clearly talks about more than just death. Luke 16:19-31 is a story Jesus tells that suggests that there is more than just "eternal life" versus "death". Jesus referred to multiple things like where He says it is better to cut something off than continue in the sin it is doing and be sent "where the worm doesn't die and the fire isn't quenched" (Mar 9:43-48). Jesus says don't fear him who can only kill you; but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna (Matt 10:28). And the list goes on.

ToBeLoved · Nov 21, 2017

I think this comes down to does the OP believe scripture and who and what God says He is.

God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son ....

Almost there · Nov 21, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I disagree with you on that. The Bible very clearly talks about more than just death. Luke 16:19-31 is a story Jesus tells that suggests that there is more than just "eternal life" versus "death". Jesus referred to multiple things like where He says it is better to cut something off than continue in the sin it is doing and be sent "where the worm doesn't die and the fire isn't quenched" (Mar 9:43-48). Jesus says don't fear him who can only kill you; but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna (Matt 10:28). And the list goes on.

Lazarus and the Rich man is not about eternity. The worm that does not die is a quote from the OT and is about actual dead bodies.

It's all (and a lot more) covered in the link I provided (jewishnotgreek.com)

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 21, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
I think this comes down to does the OP believe scripture and who and what God says He is.

God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son ....

The original poster does believe Scripture 100% and LOVES GOD. The original poster believer what God said about Himself. I just don't always believe what humans try to inflict on God--like that He loves unconditionally or that no one will be found in hell--because when people believe the lies of others, it negatively impacts what Scriptures they are willing to accept and what they are willing to believe about God. Too many belittle verses that don't fit their theology instead of digging deeper to find the real Truth.

See, I don't have to discount or belittle any verse. Take the partially quoted John 3:16, because God imposes a condition that people believe His testimony about His Son to have eternal life. So, NOT EVERYONE is given the gift, only those who will believe. That is very consistent with things Jesus said and prayed for, including John 17:9, 20. God could have said: For God so loved the world and people were so depraved that God sent His only begotten Son so that ALL would be saved for eternal life or so that ALL would be saved from eternal punishment; but He didn't, instead He said receiving eternal life was conditional upon believing in His Son.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 21, 2017

Almost there said:
Lazarus and the Rich man is not about eternity. The worm that does not die is a quote from the OT and is about actual dead bodies.

It's all (and a lot more) covered in the link I provided (jewishnotgreek.com)

I disagree with you. But, you haven't given me your alternative understanding of the why of the Luke 16 passage. I won't go study a website that you have given me two reasons to disagree with already. Just like I don't go to the Jews to understand the Scriptures when they failed to properly understand/interpret Scripture and missed Jesus. Without being biased by others' opinions, Scripture says something. If the rich man and Lazarus isn't a picture of what happened at death, what do you think it is? Jesus didn't have to present that picture. I don't think it was an accident.

As far as Mar 9 and Isa 66, I also disagree with you, though I know there is a growing number of people who agree with you.

I am always willing to re-examine what I believe. And will use my time off to do so. Thank you!

ToBeLoved · Nov 21, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
The original poster does believe Scripture 100% and LOVES GOD. The original poster believer what God said about Himself. I just don't always believe what humans try to inflict on God--like that He loves unconditionally or that no one will be found in hell--because when people believe the lies of others, it negatively impacts what Scriptures they are willing to accept and what they are willing to believe about God. Too many belittle verses that don't fit their theology instead of digging deeper to find the real Truth.

See, I don't have to discount or belittle any verse. Take the partially quoted John 3:16, because God imposes a condition that people believe His testimony about His Son to have eternal life. So, NOT EVERYONE is given the gift, only those who will believe. That is very consistent with things Jesus said and prayed for, including John 17:9, 20. God could have said: For God so loved the world and people were so depraved that God sent His only begotten Son so that ALL would be saved for eternal life or so that ALL would be saved from eternal punishment; but He didn't, instead He said receiving eternal life was conditional upon believing in His Son.

Scripture says that it was decided that Jesus would be the sacrifice BEFORE the earth was created.

If people want to equate God's love with believing that all will be saved, that is at their own peril. When you start forming theology based on all the ways someone could misconscue a verse, then you are not rightly dividing the truth in God's Word given to us.

Lies are going to be out there.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 21, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Scripture says that it was decided that Jesus would be the sacrifice BEFORE the earth was created.

If people want to equate God's love with believing that all will be saved, that is at their own peril. When you start forming theology based on all the ways someone could misconscue a verse, then you are not rightly dividing the truth in God's Word given to us.

Lies are going to be out there.

I agree that it is not good to form a theology based on what someone else says. And, I agree that is at their own peril. But, if I have love, shouldn't I care enough to try to help them see they have been deceived? Peter, Paul, Stephen, etc showed that kind of love--even to their deaths--didn't they? Jesus was sent to set the captives free and one of the things He did was correct misunderstandings about Scripture.

ToBeLoved · Nov 21, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I agree that it is not good to form a theology based on what someone else says. And, I agree that is at their own peril. But, if I have love, shouldn't I care enough to try to help them see they have been deceived? Peter, Paul, Stephen, etc showed that kind of love--even to their deaths--didn't they? Jesus was sent to set the captives free and one of the things He did was correct misunderstandings about Scripture.

Even the title of this thread is doubting what the Bible says about God loving all the world.

I don't think we can even for a minute figure out the extent of what love is from the Creator of 'love' and the perfect One who is only righteous and holy.

I think it is a fallicy that selfish human beings that can't stop sinning against others and themselves would think that they can define the perfect love of God. It is utterly ludacris to me and shows how we humans think we are really 'all that and a bag of chips'.

In my opinion, we should not be limiting God to a range of emotion or feeling that we as humans experience.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 22, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Even the title of this thread is doubting what the Bible says about God loving all the world.

You claim I doubt God. But you claim that I am doubting based on premise that isn't true. Where in the Bible does GOD say "He loves all the world"? This is exactly why I posted this thread. People have believed a lie to their peril. God never says that. You quoted John 3:16 before. That verse doesn't say that He loves all the world! In Jesus' prayer to the Father, HE EXPRESSLY EXCLUDED THE WORLD! (John 17:9,20) Are you suggesting that Jesus wasn't really One with the Father? Do you believe Jesus was not praying the Father's will?

I don't think we can even for a minute figure out the extent of what love is from the Creator of 'love' and the perfect One who is only righteous and holy.

I think it is a fallicy that selfish human beings that can't stop sinning against others and themselves would think that they can define the perfect love of God. It is utterly ludacris to me and shows how we humans think we are really 'all that and a bag of chips'.

In my opinion, we should not be limiting God to a range of emotion or feeling that we as humans experience.

In one respect, you are blasting people who "think they can define the perfect love of God." Saying "it is utterly ludacris to me and shows how we humans think we are really 'all that and a bag of chips'" and YET YOU ARE DOING EXACTLY THAT! You are questioning the title, because you have a preconceived notion--either personally formed or handed down from others--that God's love is for ALL the world; yet the Bible says it isn't.

So whose standard should we follow, "the opinions of people" that aren't supported by Scripture or what God says in The Bible? I don't value the opinions of people that much. I value what God said in Scripture. God said He is a jealous God. I didn't. Jesus said: "He who overcomes...." not EVERYBODY in Rev 2 & 3 & 21 while He is addressing "churches". God said that "whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." I didn't. We even have a list of those who will not be considered overcomers in Rev 21:7-8 as well as other places, including the writings through Paul.

God is way above our ability to fully comprehend. But, He has made claims in Scripture that we shouldn't discount simply because it doesn't match our indoctrination or opinions. I don't think God is offended that we wrestle with His Word to try to come to a better understanding of Him rather than stick in shallow lack of understanding.

Almost there · Nov 22, 2017

E

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I disagree with you. But, you haven't given me your alternative understanding of the why of the Luke 16 passage. I won't go study a website that you have given me two reasons to disagree with already. Just like I don't go to the Jews to understand the Scriptures when they failed to properly understand/interpret Scripture and missed Jesus. Without being biased by others' opinions, Scripture says something. If the rich man and Lazarus isn't a picture of what happened at death, what do you think it is? Jesus didn't have to present that picture. I don't think it was an accident.

As far as Mar 9 and Isa 66, I also disagree with you, though I know there is a growing number of people who agree with you.

I am always willing to re-examine what I believe. And will use my time off to do so. Thank you!

Excellent! I believe that just as the reformation was a result of the invention of the printing press, I believe that a lot of incorrect interpretations of scripture that have been handed down over the generations, in all Christian churches are getting a serious purification because of the invention of the internet. We are so able to freely discuss this now. It is actually remarkable.

BTW, I link to sites simply because I do not want to keep re-inventing the wheel. Also, virtually every scripture used to support ECT is addressed here:
Explore

go to the "scriptures" tab and then click on the traditionalism tab for the scriptures supporting ECT and comments about them. Go to the conditionalism tab for the scriptures supporting that viewpoint, and any comments on them.

It's pretty exhaustive, but you can attack it in chunks.

And remember Matthew 13:34 - Jesus spoke all these things to the crowds in parables. He did not tell them anything without using a parable.

And Lazarus and the rich man is number 33 here:
Jesus' 46 Parables in Chronological Order - Practical Bible study - 26 lessons - What it means today

Also, Lazarus and the rich man were in hades. It is the place where everyone goes when they die, not after the GWTJ. The parable is not about hades. It is about the message given toward the end, that many would not believe who Jesus was, even if He was raised from the dead.

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
In one respect, you are blasting people who "think they can define the perfect love of God." Saying "it is utterly ludacris to me and shows how we humans think we are really 'all that and a bag of chips'" and YET YOU ARE DOING EXACTLY THAT! You are questioning the title, because you have a preconceived notion--either personally formed or handed down from others--that God's love is for ALL the world; yet the Bible says it isn't.

So whose standard should we follow, "the opinions of people" that aren't supported by Scripture or what God says in The Bible? I don't value the opinions of people that much. I value what God said in Scripture. God said He is a jealous God. I didn't. Jesus said: "He who overcomes...." not EVERYBODY in Rev 2 & 3 & 21 while He is addressing "churches". God said that "whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." I didn't. We even have a list of those who will not be considered overcomers in Rev 21:7-8 as well as other places, including the writings through Paul.

God is way above our ability to fully comprehend. But, He has made claims in Scripture that we shouldn't discount simply because it doesn't match our indoctrination or opinions. I don't think God is offended that we wrestle with His Word to try to come to a better understanding of Him rather than stick in shallow lack of understanding.

The issue to me is that God says He loves us
All unconditionally and you are using hell as an example that could not be true.

Sorry I believe God’s Word.

Also, I will repeat again, what is ludacris to me is that sinful humans think that we understand what Love is
For God Him being perfect and of perfect love

If you want to see God, study Jesus
Love

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 22, 2017

Almost there said:
Lazarus and the Rich man is not about eternity. The worm that does not die is a quote from the OT and is about actual dead bodies.

It's all (and a lot more) covered in the link I provided (jewishnotgreek.com)

I'm confused about what you are trying to communicate to me. First, you sent me this. Then you sent me the later post on 11/22. The later post asked me to go to what a site said about the parable I said presented a picture of hell. You said in the above message that the story was about dead bodies, but, that site you asked me to read #33 of, actually supports it as a picture of heaven and hell--which would mean you were supporting what I originally said. Can you clarify?

I did actually start looking at some information, including the conditionalism approach, since your earlier message. I will continue to re-examine; but at this point I am still inclined to believe eternal conscious torment for those who choose against God.

Just so I am clear, I am not telling God what He has to do. I am interpreting what it appears He said He will do. I am NOT one who plans on telling God what He has to do. God is Sovereign and I am not. I won't be enforcing what I believe He said. I'm not that stupid! God can do what He wants. I just believe that if God said something in Scripture, He said it for a reason. If He chooses to annihilate people, after threatening ECT--maybe only out of His mercy and desire to save more out of fear--I won't be saying: "But, God, you said...."

My concern is for people who think something less is going to happen and find themselves in continual conscious torture, like the rich man.

Almost there · Nov 22, 2017

There is just so much I want to link to on the internet. I've been reading this stuff for over a decade and have a LOT of links I "could" supply. My explanations are in red within your quote

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I'm confused about what you are trying to communicate to me. First, you sent me this. It was strictly discussing the worm not dying and the fire not being quenched. The scripture Jesus was referring to was about dead bodies. And the worm and fire were a metaphor for them being utterly consumed. There would be nothing left of them. The bible actually discusses that quite a bit regarding those that God destroys. They are virtually (or literally) wiped from history/memory. Then you sent me the later post on 11/22. The later post asked me to go to what a site said about the parable I said presented a picture of hell. You said in the above message that the story was about dead bodies, but, that site you asked me to read #33 of, actually supports it as a picture of heaven and hell--which would mean you were supporting what I originally said. Can you clarify? The one about #33 was just to point out that the site sees it as a parable, even though, yes, they disagree with me on the nature of hell (which I believe is outside the scope of the meaning of the parable).

I did actually start looking at some information, including the conditionalism approach, since your earlier message. I will continue to re-examine; but at this point I am still inclined to believe eternal conscious torment for those who choose against God.

I don't blame you. BTW, I keep referring to jewishnotgreek.com because in all the sites I've found on the subject, that is the one that is "just right" regarding content. It is not overly simplistic and does not really get bogged down in minutia. It's my favorite starting point. I only discovered it a few months ago. There is also a group on facebook called Rethinking hell. You can become a member there and ask all sorts of questions. They are quite respectful and, most importantly, VERY responsive.

Just so I am clear, I am not telling God what He has to do. I am interpreting what it appears He said He will do. I am NOT one who plans on telling God what He has to do. God is Sovereign and I am not. I won't be enforcing what I believe He said. I'm not that stupid! God can do what He wants. I just believe that if God said something in Scripture, He said it for a reason. If He chooses to annihilate people, after threatening ECT--maybe only out of His mercy and desire to save more out of fear--I won't be saying: "But, God, you said...."

My concern is for people who think something less is going to happen and find themselves in continual conscious torture, like the rich man.

Almost there · Nov 22, 2017

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
My concern is for people who think something less is going to happen and find themselves in continual conscious torture, like the rich man.

I'd like to address that part separately. I believe that God is very clear from Genesis three on that His desire is to have an eternal relationship, but the wages of sin is death. It is exactly what he warned Adam would happen if he did what he ended up doing. And that is exactly what Jesus "undid" for all who accept his free gift. He restores us to our creator and eliminates death. No more is needed.

And just scaring the crap out of people to bring them to God is never a methodology used by Jesus or the apostles. Check out Acts 2 to get a feel for how they approached it. Nowhere does Jesus (or the apostles) try to scare us into conversion. It is all about love and desire. If one is in church only because they believe but are scared of ECT, they are no different than the demons that believe, and tremble.

But it fills pews.

And to make matters worse, and get to why I'm so actively opposed to the ECT message: When "anti" Christians start threads against Christianity hear and there on the net, they virtually always point out the lunacy of the "loving God that tortures most of humanity for all eternity in ways even hitler and pol pot never thought of." And here is the amazing part: When I try to tell them that is not what the bible says about God, it becomes imperative to them to argue that that IS what the bible teaches.

i.e. those that hate Christianity find it extremely important to argue vehemently that the bible teaches ECT. If that is not the truth, it destroys their whole narrative. I find that rather fascinating.

How do people who are "unconditionally loved" end up in hell?

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