How could mary be a virgin?

GodnJesus · Sep 12, 2009

The old testament states that any breakage of the Hyman should be considered loss of virginity? Meaning she did technically sin.

seashale76 · Sep 12, 2009

The Red Sea was parted and then God closed it back.

MrPolo · Sep 14, 2009

Who says her hymen broke? And where does it say loss of virginity automatically a sin?

Ave Maria · Sep 21, 2009

MrPolo said:
Who says her hymen broke? And where does it say loss of virginity automatically a sin?

Well, logically, giving birth is going to break the hymen if the hymen hasn't been broken already which it should have been unless you're another virgin giving birth. That said, maybe the New Testament and the Old Testament are using different definitions of virginity?

MrPolo · Sep 26, 2009

Episcopalian Girl said:
Well, logically, giving birth is going to break the hymen if the hymen hasn't been broken already which it should have been unless you're another virgin giving birth. That said, maybe the New Testament and the Old Testament are using different definitions of virginity?

Tradition says her hymen did not break but that the birth was miraculous as was the conception. He was born of a Virgin but did not take it away from her when He was born. Scripture never says specifically, but we do know from Scripture this was a one-of-a-kind pregnancy.

bbbbbbb · Sep 26, 2009

I think we should leave it to what scripture does tell us and not worry about what it doesn't tell us. I, for one, don't see a problem either way.

Sphinx777 · Sep 26, 2009

A virgin (or maiden) is, originally, a woman who has never had sexual intercourse. Virginity is the state of being a virgin. It is derived from the Latin virgo, which means "sexually inexperienced woman", used typically of adolescents, but also of older women, and even goddesses.

As in Latin, the English word is also often used with wider reference, by relaxing the age, gender or sexual criteria. Hence, more mature women can be virgins (The Virgin Queen), men can be virgins, and potential initiates into many fields can be colloquially termed virgins, for example a skydiving "virgin". In the last usage, virgin simply means uninitiated.

Also by extension from its primary sense, the idea that a virgin has a sexual "blank slate", unchanged by any past intimate connection or experience, leads to the abstraction of unadulterated purity. Hence, virgin can even be used with non-human referents. Unalloyed metal is sometimes described as virgin. Some cocktails can be described as virgin, when lacking the alcoholic admixture. Similarly, olive oil may be called virgin if it contains no refined oil and has an acidity below 2%, or extra-virgin if it comes from a cold pressing with an acidity below .08%.

The last instance also incorporates yet another association of virginity—the notability of its loss. More properly, the association is with the significance of the addition of a new status, rather than a loss. Hence this association is typically found in references to the first instance of a potentially extended series of like events. Just as extra-virgin olive oil is from the first pressing, so a maiden or virgin speech is an incumbent's first address. The same metaphor, using the synonym maiden, is applied to the first or maiden voyage of a ship. A woman's maiden name is the surname she had when she was (presumed to be) a virgin—her first surname. In cricket, a maiden over is an over from which no runs were scored. Maiden Castles are those with the reputation of never having been captured.

Wool, computer systems, and unfertilized gametes can be virgin. Females of various species, by analogy with Homo sapiens, if they have never mated, can also be called virgin.

Chastity does not imply virginity. Chastity derives from the Latin ‘castitas’, meaning ‘cleanliness’ or ‘purity’ — and does not necessarily mean the renunciation of all sexual relations, but rather the temperate sexual behavior of legitimately married spouses, for the purpose of procreation, or the sexual continence of the unmarried.

Sphinx777 · Sep 26, 2009

CaliforniaJosiah · Sep 30, 2009

bbbbbbb said:
I think we should leave it to what scripture does tell us and not worry about what it doesn't tell us. I, for one, don't see a problem either way.

Well, I tend to agree. But we have the RC and EO that INSIST that it's a matter of highest importance that Our Lady had no sex EVER. To THEM, it's a very, very, very BIG DEAL.

Should we ask, why? Why is the issue of how often she and Joseph shared loving, mutual intimacies within the Sacrament of Marriage after Jesus was born is such a HUGE topic, of such AMAZING interest to them, of the highest importance? Should we ask why?

.

narnia59 · Sep 30, 2009

CaliforniaJosiah said:
Well, I tend to agree. But we have the RC and EO that INSIST that it's a matter of highest importance that Our Lady had no sex EVER. To THEM, it's a very, very, very BIG DEAL.

Should we ask, why? Why is the issue of how often she and Joseph shared loving, mutual intimacies within the Sacrament of Marriage after Jesus was born is such a HUGE topic, of such AMAZING interest to them, of the highest importance? Should we ask why?

.

Why is it important that her virginity remained inviolate during the birth of Christ? To believe that Christ did not pass through the birth canal at all, but mysteriously entered the world by other means? Why is this of such high importance to the Lutherans that it is specified in the Book of Concord, which many Lutheran groups hold to be binding as doctrine for their members?

Hentenza · Sep 30, 2009

Is believing one way or the other necessary for salvation?

CaliforniaJosiah · Sep 30, 2009

narnia59 said:
Why is this of such high importance to the Lutherans

1. Quote for me where any of the 300+ Lutheran denominations have officially declared the Perpetual Virginity of Mary to be DOGMA? And then, if you can, the names of the pastors defrocked for not holding to the view dogmatically or even confirmed Lutheran layperson excommunicated for not holding to the view dogmatically? List the Lutheran denominations and, if you will, where in their official declarations such is called "DOGMA?" And the resulting pastors defrocked for not so embracing the view?

2. Did you know that the proper cooking of brats is an issue of high importance to many Lutherans? Is it therefore your view that any particular cooking method is dogma among Lutherans?

3. As has been shared before, I'm now an official, confirmed member of a Lutheran congregation, which in turn is a part of one of the world's Lutheran denominations. MY view on how often Mary had sex after Jesus was born is that I don't have one. My pastor KNEW my position BEFORE I was Confirmed. Although he DOES have a view, he recommended me for Confirmation. Hum. Oh, and while HIS view is that Mary never had sex, he expressed to ME that most Lutheran clergy hold to MY view - they don't have a pious opinion on that topic. And some hold that She likely DID have sex. Hum. I'm not aware that ANY of those pastors have been defrocked and excommunicated - or charged with heresy. We've been over this MANY times now.

.

CaliforniaJosiah · Sep 30, 2009

Hentenza said:
Is believing one way or the other necessary for salvation?

We're both former Catholics (you officially, me not)....

It is MY impression that the RCC historically has been all over the map on this. There are times when it has CLEARLY stated that some view IS necessary for "salvation" (a word used inconsistently in the RCC - adding to the confusion on this point). Read the Athanasian Creed. Unam Sanctum.

My Catholic teachers expressed that CURRENTLY, the RCC hesitates to state definitively who is or is not "saved" or even will be "saved." Nonetheless, views are declared dogmas primarily in order to condemn those that hold to varient views, the purpose is to anathamatize those that disagree.

I asked my priest your very question. If the Church believes that one can be a heretic on a dogma (I limited my question to just one issue, one dogma). And his response (careful, I noted!) was this: "Let's just say heaven is not populated by heretics."

.

Tangible · Sep 30, 2009

Adiaphora.

Kristos · Sep 30, 2009

Hentenza said:
Is believing one way or the other necessary for salvation?

You wouldn't think so, but if she wasn't a virgin at least until Jesus was named, then the prophecy of Isaiah wouldn't be fulfilled.

Hentenza · Sep 30, 2009

Kristos said:
You wouldn't think so, but if she wasn't a virgin at least until Jesus was named, then the prophecy of Isaiah wouldn't be fulfilled.

Dear Kristos,

The fact of the virgin birth is not part of my question but the ever virgin dogma is. I guess I'll restate the question to clarify.

Is believing that Mary remained a virgin forever necessary for salvation?

narnia59 · Sep 30, 2009

CaliforniaJosiah said:
1. Quote for me where any of the 300+ Lutheran denominations have officially declared the Perpetual Virginity of Mary to be DOGMA? And then, if you can, the names of the pastors defrocked for not holding to the view dogmatically or even confirmed Lutheran layperson excommunicated for not holding to the view dogmatically? List the Lutheran denominations and, if you will, where in their official declarations such is called "DOGMA?" And the resulting pastors defrocked for not so embracing the view?

2. Did you know that the proper cooking of brats is an issue of high importance to many Lutherans? Is it therefore your view that any particular cooking method is dogma among Lutherans?

3. As has been shared before, I'm now an official, confirmed member of a Lutheran congregation, which in turn is a part of one of the world's Lutheran denominations. MY view on how often Mary had sex after Jesus was born is that I don't have one. My pastor KNEW my position BEFORE I was Confirmed. Although he DOES have a view, he recommended me for Confirmation. Hum. Oh, and while HIS view is that Mary never had sex, he expressed to ME that most Lutheran clergy hold to MY view - they don't have a pious opinion on that topic. And some hold that She likely DID have sex. Hum. I'm not aware that ANY of those pastors have been defrocked and excommunicated - or charged with heresy. We've been over this MANY times now.

.

At least some Lutheran denominations declare the Book of Concord to be "binding" doctrine. I've never seen anything about it containing the proper cooking of brats. It does however declare Mary as "always" virgin and declares that Christ did not violate that virginity by passing through the birth canal.

Is your particular group one of the Lutheran groups that declares the Book of Concord to be "binding" doctrine? If not, then I see it as no issue that your pastor would confirm you and tell you it's not necessary to believe that. If it is, then you are doing both the group and yourself a disservice, in my view. You are not holding to what it professes to be 'binding' doctrine, and they are 'binding' you to a doctrine you do not believe to be necessary. If that were me, I've have to consider looking elsewhere for the sake of truth in worship.

Whether or not an individual religious group chooses to discipline its members for publicly disagreeing with its binding doctrine is up to the group, but I think the policy of "picking and choosing" which doctrines we allow disagreement on is a slippery slope. But since you seem to know much about this area, can you provide the list of Catholics who have been excommunicated for denouncing this? Charged with heresy? Defrocked?

And again, you are the one who has made the issue not the perpetual virginity of Mary itself, but rather that the Catholics and Orthodox view this a doctrine. I simply think you should be forthright enough to include many Lutheran congregations on your list of those you have issue with.

Kristos · Sep 30, 2009

Hentenza said:
Dear Kristos,

The fact of the virgin birth is not part of my question but the ever virgin dogma is. I guess I'll restate the question to clarify.

Is believing that Mary remained a virgin forever necessary for salvation?

I suppose it depends on how one views salvation. Someone who sees salvation as a judicial act might not see the need to understand this mystery. While someone who sees salvation as culmination of a process, the finish line of a race, might see value in it and it could help them on their way.

Hentenza · Sep 30, 2009

Kristos said:
I suppose it depends on how one views salvation. Someone who sees salvation as a judicial act might not see the need to understand this mystery. While someone who sees salvation as culmination of a process, the finish line of a race, might see value in it and it could help them on their way.

Ok, but isn't making this belief a dogma in essence implying that it is sinful to not believe it?

CaliforniaJosiah · Sep 30, 2009

narnia59 said:
Josiah said:

1. Quote for me where any of the 300+ Lutheran denominations have officially declared the Perpetual Virginity of Mary to be DOGMA? And then, if you can, the names of the pastors defrocked for not holding to the view dogmatically or even confirmed Lutheran layperson excommunicated for not holding to the view dogmatically? List the Lutheran denominations and, if you will, where in their official declarations such is called "DOGMA?" And the resulting pastors defrocked for not so embracing the view?

2. Did you know that the proper cooking of brats is an issue of high importance to many Lutherans? Is it therefore your view that any particular cooking method is dogma among Lutherans?

3. As has been shared before, I'm now an official, confirmed member of a Lutheran congregation, which in turn is a part of one of the world's Lutheran denominations. MY view on how often Mary had sex after Jesus was born is that I don't have one. My pastor KNEW my position BEFORE I was Confirmed. Although he DOES have a view, he recommended me for Confirmation. Hum. Oh, and while HIS view is that Mary never had sex, he expressed to ME that most Lutheran clergy hold to MY view - they don't have a pious opinion on that topic. And some hold that She likely DID have sex. Hum. I'm not aware that ANY of those pastors have been defrocked and excommunicated - or charged with heresy. We've been over this MANY times now.

.

Click to expand...

At least some Lutheran denominations ...

Read what you quoted from me.

I realize that you don't seem to know what adiaphoron or pious opinion is. I realize that. It's been explained to you over and over and over, but I realize you don't understand the concept. Oh, well....

To know if something is regarded as dogma, you should do what I have repeatedly directed you to do. Is it officially declared to be such? Is it embraced as such? Are pastors defrocked over it? Are people excommunicated or anathmatized over it? As you have been told repeatedly, Luther embraced this PIOUS OPINION (yup, quite passionately). There were Lutheran pastors who DISAGREED with it (equally passionately). Did Luther anathmatize, excommunicate, condemn, defrock them? Nope. He just disagreed with them. I realize the whole concept of adiaphoron is not understood by you, and I don't think I can do anything more about that. If you want to continue to contradict all the Lutherans here about the status of this veiw in Lutheranism, then quote from some of the 300+ Lutheran denominations in some official declaration that it is dogma. Give me examples of pastors excommunicated and defrocked over this issue. Otherwise, maybe you should accept what all the Lutherans here at CF have told you, it's not dogma, it's adiaphoron, it's pious opinion. A Lutheran LIKE ME is permitted to NOT embrace the view. A Lutheran LIKE MY PASTOR is permitted to embrace the view. And (if my pastor is correct), Lutherans LIKE MOST OF ITS PASTORS may actually disagree with the view. This should tell you: it's not dogma. But, for some reason.....

I think the policy of "picking and choosing" which doctrines we allow disagreement on is a slippery slope.

Wow. NO DENOMINATION on the planet or in all of Christian history has done this more than the RCC. Have you seen the official Catholic Catechism, all 800 pages of it? I have (read every single word and looked up all the Scripture footnotes in it, too). I've noted all it says - and all it does not say.

Funny, too, because when I was in the RCC, one of my Catholic teachers taught limbo and another did not. For CENTURIES, Transubstantiation was a debated (and usually rejected) theory. Then later, it became more accepted (but still debated). Then later, it came an official teaching (but it was still okay to not teach it). Then later, it became doctrine. Then after Luther's death, it became dogma. Hum.

Every official doctrinal action of the RCC (and it's FAR from finished with this!) is doing exactly what you are condemning. And no one does it more than your denomination.

Does it seem at least interesting to you that originally, the church was silent on how often Mary and Joseph had sex after Jesus was born. The earliest Tradition is SILENCE (um, my position!). LATER, there came a disputed view that she was so deprived. LATER, it was declared she never did have sex. Isn't it interesting we have a picking and choosing of which later, disputed view was embrace - to replace the earlier Tradition of silence?

I simply think you should be forthright enough to include many Lutheran congregations on your list of those you have issue with.

AGAIN, quote for me the Lutheran congregations where this is official dogma.

AGAIN, I could quote a Catholic who believes that the Pope is NEVER infallible (actually, I could quote MANY). Does that indicate that the official position of Catholicism is that the Pope is NEVER infallible? You seem to be confusing the views of individuals with the official believe of denominations. IF you want to change the subject of the DOGMA of Mary Had No Sex Ever to "what do each of the 2.2 billion Christians in the world think about this?" we can, but I'd be sure MANY of the Catholics should have a LESS CATHOLIC view than I do (I actually know several with a LESS Catholic view on this than I have). But I don't know why you want to not discuss the dogma of the RCC and would rather discuss what 2.2 billion Christians think about this.

.

How could mary be a virgin?

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