How could Jesus dying be considered a sacrifice?

Virgil the Roman · Apr 29, 2006

what are we going to rant on the hyprocrisy of christians? I there are many "Non-christian"-Christians, who pretend to be christian, but lie, and spew the filth of ignorance of God's true word and ignoring what our Lord Jesus has taught. i know i've seen it many a time. their hypocrasy crushes my heart as much as it angered our Lord Jesus Christ. Just so you know a christian in any strict definition is of the word, is one , who believes the Jesus to be the Messiah and humanly incarnation of God himself. Any denial of this discounts one from being a christian. I'm not being a hypocrite, i'm just tired of fakes and false christians posing as true believers in God, and then convincing others, or having others been convinced they are a genuinely true follower of God. As much as one might not like it, what i wrote earlier is one of the main stipulations for a person to truely be considered a christian. I apologise for my rant, but i felt it nessicary , and thus justified.

corvus_corax · Apr 29, 2006

Ravenonthecross said:
what are we going to rant on the hyprocrisy of christians?

What hypocrisy?

Ravenonthecross said:
I there are many "Non-christian"-Christians, who pretend to be christian, but lie, and spew the filth of ignorance of God's true word and ignoring what our Lord Jesus has taught.

Yes, but we arent talking about "non christians here"

Ravenonthecross said:
i know i've seen it many a time

Of course you have
Every religious group has
It's nothing new

Ravenonthecross said:
Just so you know a christian in any strict definition is of the word, is one , who believes the Jesus to be the Messiah and humanly incarnation of God himself.

You have no evidence for this.
Of course, Im sure you interpret your NT scriptures this way, but your personal interpretation matters not one whit.

Ravenonthecross said:
Any denial of this discounts one from being a christian

Falsehood

Ravenonthecross said:
I'm not being a hypocrite

Most likely not
You're just setting yourself up as Judge and Jury
Have fun with that

Ravenonthecross said:
i'm just tired of fakes and false christians posing as true believers in God, and then convincing others, or having others been convinced they are a genuinely true follower of God.

Name one on this forum who acts as you accuse
Go ahead
Just one
Again, your personal interpretation of the NT is not THE truth of the NT.

Ravenonthecross said:
As much as one might not like it, what i wrote earlier is one of the main stipulations for a person to truely be considered a christian

Really?
Care to go up against the Catholic faith on this?

Ravenonthecross said:
I apologise for my rant, but i felt it nessicary , and thus justified.

Not justified, but if it makes you feel better, okay

Lilly of the Valley · Apr 29, 2006

corvus_corax said:
I appreciate your patience and research, along with your counterpoints.
I especially appreciate your lack of "nuh-uh" response that we see so many times on these forums

That's cool

"Heart's failing" in this context is, you must admit, a purely interpretive stance.
I (and many others, including christians I have spoken with) have interpreted this prophecy as regarding to cowardice and fear, both of which equate to "heart's failing" as much as heart disease, attacks, etc
Besides, the documented rise in heart disease and attacks is only based on the time since we have been keeping records of such
Likewise, is this rise in heart disease/attacks likewise documented in every population, or just a select few? (there may actually BE a rise in all populations, Im just unaware of it)

Do you mean now?
Or historically?
Or do you mean here in the USA, or worldwide?
Statistics would be good here (such as "Christian deaths due to their beliefs vs Other deaths due to their beliefs")
A Christian who dies (even violently) is not necessarily persecution.

Oh....
...I thought a false prophet was one who made prophecies....but if even ONE doesnt come true, then he is a false prophet, as his prophecies havent come via God.

BTW, all of mine have (and WILL) come true

Which verse?
The one that states "Humans will war against humans", etc?

New stuff is happening?
You mean like earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, tornadoes and hurricanes?
This is not new.
As a matter of fact, earthquakes not only arent increasing in number, but they also arent increasing in intensity.
Now, one can argue that the devastation caused by natural disasters has increased, but that is only in regard to human life and property.
Why?
Because humans are idiots and seemingly desire to live in high risk areas (such as Tornado Alley, Florida, California, etc).
But frequency and actual damage (minus the human imposed equation) has not increased.

Speaking of natural disasters, certain native american tribes have a prophecy speaking of the "little sister" whispering (supposedly a reference to the Mt St Helens eruption) and Big Brother answering years later (supposedly a reference to Mt Rainer blowing up in a much bigger explosion/eruption than that of Helens).
Many geologists seem to think that Rainer is far overdue for a massive eruption, one that might wipe out (or nearly so) the cities north or northwest of Rainer.
If Seattle is harmed by the imminent eruption of Mt Rainer, will you accept that the native americans in question were listening the a 'real god" when they were listening to the prophecy of "THEIR god"?

Oh, thanks!

Actually, it's on a rise worldwide. Look: Here and Here and here.

I'm talking worldwide now, though there was some historically as well, and I'm not just talking death. Persecution can come in many forms, such as mockery, riviling, etc...

Well, that can be considered one as well I guess, but I think the definition I gave was better because someone might actually think they are sincerely right and not mean to decieve and give an accidently false thing....a false prophet is someone who purposely lies in the name of the Lord. Hence severe judgements in the Bible for them. I wouldn't call somone who is accidenlty inaccurate a false prophet, just inaccurate.

Are they prophecies or just educated guesses?

Okay, here is a portion of the verse, I belive in Luke..."...and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."

Well, consider the Katrina thing and the really severe Tsunami that happened not that long ago. Both were the worst in many years. There may not be loads of increase, but the severity of things seems to be on the rise, maybe not yet w/ earthquakes, but w/ other disasters.

No. They aren't because there's only one true God. I believe they are used to nature and predicting things rt. due to them knowing where they live well, so that's one factor.

Virgil the Roman · Apr 29, 2006

JGL53 · May 2, 2006

corvus_corax said:
hehe...

corvus_corax said:
I recently found out that my wife (a professed Christian) does not believe that Jesus was God (in any sense of the word). And yet, she is a follower of Jesus (as in a follower of his teachings), because she, like many on these boards, does not see the supposed "testaments" of Jesus' Divinity (in the gospels) as actual testaments (on his part) as such, but rather as misrepresentations.

I continue to proudly call her "christian"… due to the simple fact that she is FAR more christian in her attitudes and lifestyle than 90% of the so-called "nicene creed adhereing" Christians. 90% of them talk it She lives it
And her belief is completely contrary to orthodoxy…"orthodoxy" in many cases only means "those who control the doctrine/belief/system". Minorities who disagree are seemingly discounted as "unorthodox", and thus "non-us", and thus "wrong.”

Of course what “christianity” evolved into today was decided politically over the millennia, especially in the first few hundred years. I.e., those who could produce a majority viewpoint, and had the numbers, and the political and physical power to make it the “orthodox” view, did so by exterminating the minorities. The christianity of today was wroth forth from a river of blood.

I’m a big fan of the late philosopher/eastern thought interpreter Alan Watts, who was early in his life an ordained Anglican priest, the chaplain at Northwestern University, and who, in obtaining his advanced degree in theology, had apparently read and studied the majority of ancient and modern texts on christianity. His take was that the proper interpretation of christian scripture reveal that Jesus seemed more of a Buddha than a literalist Jew. His “the father and I are one” was not a statement of specialty, but that he had recognized the oneness of himself and ultimate reality (like Buddha) and that not just he but every person is one with the “father” - meaning the author of all dualistic reality, like Brahma, Nirvana, the Tao, etc. – and that it was for each of us to recognize this fact. (To loose ones “soul” in order to gain it is likewise an ancient Buddhist concept.)

And for all I know he could be right, especially in light of the fact that modern biblical scholarship has completely destroyed the idea of scriptural inerrancy or literal truth fused into the authors minds by god as they wrote. See:

http://www.yesweekly.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=1214&TM=21628.38

But the war of metaphysics aside, if all persons would just dedicate themselves to being decent people, following the golden rule as best as possible, and being content with agnosticism, and just HOPING for the best, I think this would be the best of all possible worlds, since humans are forever, by nature, finite in knowledge and fallible in all things.

Is this just too much to ask? Must irrational “belief” in a literal wrathful/loving male parent god and in a literal eternal hell continue apace, regardless of its obvious psychopathology? Apparently so.

happygrl35 · May 2, 2006

Ravenonthecross said:
if one doesn't believe in the bible as a christian to be the inspired word of God, and to be misrepresentations of the folks mentioned within, then they ultimately , in my opinion,

I DO NOT see the bible as the Divine,inerrant word of God.There is NO reason to see the bible this way,this is a new doctrine from the 18th century as a response to Liberalism.The bible itself doesn't even claim this!I see it as my foundation document.Jesus IS my authority,when the Hebrew bible disagrees with Jesus,Jesus wins.When Paul disagrees,Jesus wins.

JGL53 · May 3, 2006

happygrl35 said:
I DO NOT see the bible as the Divine,inerrant word of God.There is NO reason to see the bible this way,this is a new doctrine from the 18th century as a response to Liberalism…Jesus IS my authority,when the Hebrew bible disagrees with Jesus,Jesus wins.When Paul disagrees,Jesus wins.

Only Jesus is your authority, is he? OK, then.

If you mean that Jesus communicates his inerrant thoughts directly and miraculously to you, like a voice in your head, then really OK. No comment from me on that – and have a nice day.

But if Jesus communicates to you his inerrant thoughts only through his alleged recorded words in the bible, then the red letter words in the bible are your authority. Thus, the bible is your inerrant authority – part of it, that is.

In either case, one wonders - do you really need a divine source to clue you in on the Golden Rule? Really? Gee, I figured that out strictly though mundane sources and ways.

Or is it that a divine source was “needed” to assure you that life has some ultimate meaning, that you are in essence immortal, or some other such unprovable but psychologically desirous reality?

OK, then. Some people’s “need to know” just trumps everything else. As long as you obey the law and refrain from murder, running naked in traffic, etc., then knock yourself out.

And have a nice day.

Virgil the Roman · May 4, 2006

I never said i directly recieved God's messages in my head. The way i meant is i believe, to be the inspired word of God as recorded by many authors. There can be translation errors, obviouly, as we as mere humans, make mistakes, but the gist or the basis, and foundation of the Bible's what God had people record. Did i say know of God's word, and recieve knowlegde from him, know?, no! I do trust in Jesus, i trust that for the most part the bible, what's written about him is accurate. I can only pray that God helps keep faith in him. I know that i too, like happygrl35 must trust in Jesus. I believe what the bible says about the Lord Jesus, i meant like what happygrl35 said, that the bible's my "foundation document" I sorry if i'm misunderstood, or confusing, I apologise, because, this what i meant to say, only not in such confusing, and garbled words. Please, don't judge too harshly. May the Lord Jesus be with us all!

atheist88 · May 5, 2006

Ravenonthecross said:
I never said i directly recieved God's messages in my head. The way i meant is i believe, to be the inspired word of God as recorded by many authors. There can be translation errors, obviouly, as we as mere humans, make mistakes, but the gist or the basis, and foundation of the Bible's what God had people record. Did i say know of God's word, and recieve knowlegde from him, know?, no! I do trust in Jesus, i trust that for the most part the bible, what's written about him is accurate. I can only pray that God helps keep faith in him. I know that i too, like happygrl35 must trust in Jesus. I believe what the bible says about the Lord Jesus, i meant like what happygrl35 said, that the bible's my "foundation document" I sorry if i'm misunderstood, or confusing, I apologise, because, this what i meant to say, only not in such confusing, and garbled words. Please, don't judge too harshly. May the Lord Jesus be with us all!

If, as you say, we are nothing more than mere humans and we make mistakes, then who made the mistakes? Did the translators make them or will you also agree that the original authors made them as well? I mean, did Jesus really die on the cross or were the authors just trying to get the gist across of how much he loves us? Did god really kill men, women and children in a great flood or were the authors just trying to get the gist across to us about how bad it is to be "evil"?

If the bible is not divinely inspired and inerrant, then it is nothing more than a book some people decided to write about what their idea of god is, which isn't surprising because there are tons of books out there like this, including some about the bible that I'm sure you would not agree with.

Virgil the Roman · May 13, 2006

atheist88 said:
If, as you say, we are nothing more than mere humans and we make mistakes, then who made the mistakes? Did the translators make them or will you also agree that the original authors made them as well? I mean, did Jesus really die on the cross or were the authors just trying to get the gist across of how much he loves us? Did god really kill men, women and children in a great flood or were the authors just trying to get the gist across to us about how bad it is to be "evil"?

If the bible is not divinely inspired and inerrant, then it is nothing more than a book some people decided to write about what their idea of god is, which isn't surprising because there are tons of books out there like this, including some about the bible that I'm sure you would not agree with.

Thank you, for your input. I just hope we didn't get into an arguing match. I sorry if I started one. I honestly, after so many posts tend to be weary of argueing. I'll now, let you have your peace, and try not to debate much more on this subject for a least some time. Thanks again, May the Lord God bless with his eternal and unending Love!!!

JGL53 · May 14, 2006

Ravenonthecross said:
...May the Lord God bless with his eternal and unending Love!!!

- Interpreted metaphorically, who could argue with that?

Emmy · May 27, 2006

Dear Ranman87, God`s Holy, and unchangeable Law, demands Retribution, we, the sinners, were unable to pay, because none is without sin or transgression. Jesus, God-Son, was born a Man, lived among us for 33 years, and was absolutely without Sin, when He sacrificed Himself, to pay with His human body and Blood. He was the Sacrifice needed, for our Redemption, He bore all our transgressions and sins, to the cross, where He died a painful and cruel death. When God raised Him, the Price was paid, Satan was vanquished, and Death had lost its sting. God gave Himself, out of pure Love for us, so that we, who accept this great Sacrifice, may be His Own again.The greatest Miracle truly. I say this humbly and with assurance, Ranmam87, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ. P.S. Thousands upon thousands of Christian men and women, cannot all be mistaken, or deluded. Emmy.

JGL53 · May 28, 2006

Emmy said:
...God`s Holy, and unchangeable Law, demands Retribution, we, the sinners, were unable to pay, because none is without sin or transgression. Jesus, God-Son, was born a Man, lived among us for 33 years, and was absolutely without Sin, when He sacrificed Himself, to pay with His human body and Blood. He was the Sacrifice needed, for our Redemption, He bore all our transgressions and sins, to the cross, where He died a painful and cruel death. When God raised Him, the Price was paid, Satan was vanquished, and Death had lost its sting. God gave Himself, out of pure Love for us, so that we, who accept this great Sacrifice, may be His Own again.The greatest Miracle truly. I say this humbly and with assurance...Thousands upon thousands of Christian men and women, cannot all be mistaken, or deluded. Emmy.

This is all rather distastefully ethnocentric, doncha think?

relaxeus · May 28, 2006

Emmy said:
P.S. Thousands upon thousands of Christian men and women, cannot all be mistaken, or deluded. Emmy.

That must mean that thousands upon thousands of Muslim men and women can not all be mistake or deluded. And also that millions upon millions of Hindus can not be mistaken or deluded, etc...

How could Jesus dying be considered a sacrifice?

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God's love is all-overcomming

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YES!! Another possibility!!

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