How can one be tempted, yet without sin?

miamited · Nov 27, 2017

Hi TOL,

Here:

Tree of Life said:
Scripture teaches that the desire to sin is, itself, sin

Where did you find that instruction of the Scriptures?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

catsandcoffee · Nov 27, 2017

It just seems to me that, in order for Jesus to be "tempted in every way that we are", he would need to have the desire to sin. Because without the desire to sin, there is no temptation. If I see a good-looking man and do not think of him sexually, then there is no temptation there. However, the Bible says that Jesus was tempted - so does that mean He had sinful thoughts, and just chose not to act on them? I know that Jesus was perfect, and I do not question that - but I just don't understand how he could be tempted like we are, if he never even debated committing a sin

miamited · Nov 27, 2017

posted before complete

miamited · Nov 27, 2017

catsandcoffee said:
It just seems to me that, in order for Jesus to be "tempted in every way that we are", he would need to have the desire to sin. Because without the desire to sin, there is no temptation. If I see a good-looking man and do not think of him sexually, then there is no temptation there. However, the Bible says that Jesus was tempted - so does that mean He had sinful thoughts, and just chose not to act on them? I know that Jesus was perfect, and I do not question that - but I just don't understand how he could be tempted like we are, if he never even debated committing a sin

Hi catsandcoffee,

That's going to depend on 'how' one defines being tempted. Your claim is that temptation comes from desires within us. Yes, we can put ourselves into situations of temptation because of such desires, but that isn't, as far as I understand it, the correct definition of temptation.

Satan took Jesus upon a high hill and showed him all the kingdoms of the world. He tempted Jesus with the claim that he could have all those kingdoms if he would bow down to him. It doesn't seem to have mattered that Jesus did or didn't desire to have all the kingdoms of the world, but he was tempted with the promise of them.

Jesus lived among us as a human being. He passed by all the same temptations that we do. He saw fine palaces in which others lived. Surely he saw beautiful and alluring women during his travels. I'm not so sure that I agree that because one does or doesn't have a desire for the things by which they are tempted, that determines whether or not they were tempted.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

catsandcoffee · Nov 27, 2017

miamited said:
Hi catsandcoffee,

That's going to depend on 'how' one defines being tempted. Your claim is that temptation comes from desires within us. Yes, we can put ourselves into situations of temptation because of such desires, but that isn't, as far as I understand it, the correct definition of temptation.

Satan took Jesus upon a high hill and showed him all the kingdoms of the world. He tempted Jesus with the claim that he could have all those kingdoms if he would bow down to him. It doesn't seem to have mattered that Jesus did or didn't desire to have all the kingdoms of the world, but he was tempted with the promise of them.

Jesus lived among us as a human being. He passed by all the same temptations that we do. He saw fine palaces in which others lived. Surely he saw beautiful and alluring women during his travels. I'm not so sure that I agree that because one does or doesn't have a desire for the things by which they are tempted, that determines whether or not they were tempted.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

So, perhaps I should be thinking of temptations more as "opportunities" to sin, and not necessarily sinful desires... that is a good point

miamited · Nov 27, 2017

Hi TOL,

Here's what James wrote about desire and sin:
but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

What it says is that 'after' desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. Sin, when it is full-grown (to me that says after we have fallen to the desire) gives birth to death.

So, being dragged away by our own evil desires and enticed is defined as being tempted. It is only after desire has conceived that sin is born. Then after it becomes full-grown sin, it gives birth to death.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

catsandcoffee · Nov 27, 2017

miamited said:
Hi catsandcoffee,

That's going to depend on 'how' one defines being tempted. Your claim is that temptation comes from desires within us. Yes, we can put ourselves into situations of temptation because of such desires, but that isn't, as far as I understand it, the correct definition of temptation.

Satan took Jesus upon a high hill and showed him all the kingdoms of the world. He tempted Jesus with the claim that he could have all those kingdoms if he would bow down to him. It doesn't seem to have mattered that Jesus did or didn't desire to have all the kingdoms of the world, but he was tempted with the promise of them.

Jesus lived among us as a human being. He passed by all the same temptations that we do. He saw fine palaces in which others lived. Surely he saw beautiful and alluring women during his travels. I'm not so sure that I agree that because one does or doesn't have a desire for the things by which they are tempted, that determines whether or not they were tempted.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

TEMPTATION (IN THE BIBLE) In the Bible the word temptation primarily denotes a trial in which man has a free choice of being faithful or unfaithful to God; only secondarily does it signify allurement or seduction to sin.

I just found this definition after a google search.

Tree of Life · Nov 27, 2017

miamited said:
Hi TOL,

Here:

Where did you find that instruction of the Scriptures?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

In Romans 7:8 the Greek word for desire (epithumea) is identified with the sin of covetousness. Covetousness is a sinful desire.

In Romans 13:14 Paul talks about the sinful desires of the flesh. This demonstrates that there are sinful desires. The same is true in Galatians 5:16 and Galatians 5:24.

Ephesians 4:22 talks of deceitful desires which must be put off.

Colossians 3:5 speaks of evil desires which must be put off.

In 1 Timothy 6:9 Paul calls the "desire for wealth" evil.

In Titus 2:12 Paul talks about worldly passions which are uncharacteristic for Christians.

Peter in 1 Peter 1:14 talks about "passions of former ignorance" - in other words, desires which arise from an ignorance of God. These are sinful.

Jesus did not have any sinful desires as described above because then he would be guilty of sin.

Tree of Life · Nov 27, 2017

miamited said:
So, being dragged away by our own evil desires and enticed is defined as being tempted. It is only after desire has conceived that sin is born. Then after it becomes full-grown sin, it gives birth to death.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

And I'm saying that Jesus had no evil desires. Evil desires are sinful.

miamited · Nov 27, 2017

catsandcoffee said:
So, perhaps I should be thinking of temptations more as "opportunities" to sin, and not necessarily sinful desires... that is a good point

Hi C&C,

That's certainly how I see God's interaction with Adam and Eve. God doesn't condemn Eve's actions in considering that the fruit was pleasing to her eye. What He says is, "Have you eaten of the fruit of which I commanded that you shall not eat?"

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

faroukfarouk · Nov 27, 2017

Shoetoyou said:
I have never thought of temptation itself as sin, but rather the decision to take action in submission to that temptation. I think that an act of our will (even before or instead of physical action, based on teaching from the Sermon on the Mount) that is in opposition to God’s will is sin. Temptation, the desire of our own will, if rejected to follow God’s will, is not sin, but acts to His glory.

(At least, that is my understanding, though I stand open to correction...)

The Lord Jesus Himself is the One Who was tempted, yet without sin:

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4.14-15)

miamited · Nov 27, 2017

Hi TOL,

You replied:

Tree of Life said:
In Romans 7:8 the Greek word for desire (epithumea) is identified with the sin of covetousness. Covetousness is a sinful desire.

Yes, covetousness is a desire of the mind for something that someone else has that we don't. That thought of desire is sin and quite frankly leads to a lot of active sin. But, it is the thinking that I should have what someone else has that defines covetousness and that is a sin. So, this would be the point at which being tempted by our evil desires begins to conceive. When we begin to justify to ourselves why we should have what someone else has.

You then wrote:

Tree of Life said:
In Romans 13:14 Paul talks about the sinful desires of the flesh. This demonstrates that there are sinful desires. The same is true in Galatians 5:16 and Galatians 5:24.

I have no argument that there are not sinful desires of the flesh, but they do not become full-grown sin until we act upon those desires.

You then wrote:

Tree of Life said:
Ephesians 4:22 talks of deceitful desires which must be put off.

Colossians 3:5 speaks of evil desires which must be put off.

Yes, that's exactly my point, we have evil desires and yes, they must be put off. Why must they be put off? Because if we allow them a foothold they will lead us to sin and death. We are weak in our spirit and allowing evil desires to grow within us will lead us to sin and death. The desires themselves are not the sin, although if we allow those desires to begin covetousness in us or physically act on those desires, we will then be sinning against God.

Finally, you wrote:

Tree of Life said:
Jesus did not have any sinful desires as described above because then he would be guilty of sin.

I would agree that Jesus did not have any sinful desires which is very likely a large part of the reason that he was the only acceptable substitute. However, Jesus did have desires. In his prayer in the garden he desired that the cup of his death should pass, but he quickly agreed that not his will but his Father's will be done in the matter.

You tend to slant your objective when you always use the term 'sinful desires'. In the reference of Romans that you have offered, Paul doesn't use the word 'sinful desires' as you seem to read it. I did a comparison look up and most translations translate this passage as 'desires of the flesh'. It makes no claim as to whether those desires are or aren't sinful in and of themselves, but does tell us to put such desires to rest. It tells us that because of what James says that such desires can lead to.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

“Paisios” · Nov 27, 2017

faroukfarouk said:
The Lord Jesus Himself is the One Who was tempted, yet without sin:

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4.14-15)

I think we are in agreement here. Temptation itself is not sin, but our response to that whether in heart, mind or body, can be.

faroukfarouk · Nov 27, 2017

Shoetoyou said:
I think we are in agreement here. Temptation itself is not sin, but our response to that whether in heart, mind or body, can be.

There is a section in James which is also relevant.

In the end, equipped with the resources of prayer and the Scriptures, the believer can be strengthened to face temptation, but otherwise the flesh and spiritually hurtful influences can be very strong; but the Lord is greater than these (1 John 4.4).

Tree of Life · Nov 27, 2017

miamited said:
Yes, that's exactly my point, we have evil desires and yes, they must be put off. Why must they be put off? Because if we allow them a foothold they will lead us to sin and death. We are weak in our spirit and allowing evil desires to grow within us will lead us to sin and death. The desires themselves are not the sin, although if we allow those desires to begin covetousness in us or physically act on those desires, we will then be sinning against God.

How can you say that there are sinful desires and yet say that these desires are not sin?

I think you're espousing the false idea that sin is only understood in terms of quantifiable action. This is sometimes called externalism. But the Bible teaches (see especially the Sermon on the Mount) that sin is a matter of the heart. Before misbehavior ever occurs, there is already sin in the heart. All behavioral sin stems from false worship, which is an invisible matter of the heart.

Likewise, true righteousness begins in the heart. The Pharisees' righteousness was external. They did the right behavior and avoided the wrong behavior. But their hearts (thoughts and desires) were very far from the Lord. Jesus called their righteousness inadequate.

Jesus was truly righteous, never sinning in heart, mind, or deed. He always perfectly loved God and people from the heart and always behaved rightly.

Tree of Life · Nov 27, 2017

miamited said:
I would agree that Jesus did not have any sinful desires which is very likely a large part of the reason that he was the only acceptable substitute. However, Jesus did have desires.

I totally agree that Jesus had human desires. He took upon himself a human body and human soul. He had a human mind. So he hungered and thirsted. He learned. He grew tired. He experienced the hurts and pains of betrayal, loneliness, and physical pain.

But he did not lust. He did not have the sinful desire for revenge. He never held a grudge. He was not arrogant. He did not curse people in his heart. He did not sin in his heart or mind.

Doug Melven · Nov 27, 2017

Looking in Matthew 4 we see that Jesus was really hungry and Satan tempted Him to make bread out of stones.
So Jesus was tempted to do so, but He put the truth of 1 Corinthians 10:13 into action,
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man but God is faithful who will not suffer you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation provide the way of escape that you may be able to bear it.
Then He quoted Scripture, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
And that's how the temptation was beaten.
Jesus never let the seed of temptation grow, He dealt with it immediately.

ewq1938 · Nov 27, 2017

catsandcoffee said:
Hebrews 4:15 NLT This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin.

Can anyone here shed some light on this passage? How is it possible to be tempted, but without sin? For example, when someone is tempted to cheat on their spouse, isn't the temptation itself a sin? If we desire to steal, isn't the desire itself a sin? I don't understand how Jesus could be tempted but also free of sin.

Thanks

Huge difference between someone else TRYING to tempt you with sin as satan did to Christ and being tempted TO SIN by your own desire to sin as in being tempted or being interested in committing the sin. Inside temptation VS. outside temptations/testings.

So Christ was tempted to sin by satan (externally) but was not tempted (interally) to commit any of those sins. Tempted can be used two different ways in the English.

Was Christ tempted to sin? Yes, by satan. Was Christ tempted by those sins to want to commit them? No.

Being tempted by satan to try to make/trick you to sin is very different from being tempted to sin because you would like to sin or you find that sin to be attractive. The english word can have different meanings but that actually translated into two very different Greek words:

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

G3985
pe??a´??
peirazo¯
Thayer Definition:
1) to try whether a thing can be done
1a) to attempt, endeavour
2) to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
2a) in a good sense
2b) in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments
2c) to try or test one’s faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin
2c1) to solicit to sin, to tempt
2c1a) of the temptations of the devil
2d) after the OT usage
2d1) of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith
2d2) men are said to tempt God by exhibitions of distrust, as though they wished to try whether he is not justly distrusted
2d3) by impious or wicked conduct to test God’s justice and patience, and to challenge him, as it were to give proof of his perfections.
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3984
Citing in TDNT: 6:23, 822

A better word would be TESTED.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points TESTED like as we are, yet without sin.

(BBE) For we have not a high priest who is not able to be touched by the feelings of our feeble flesh; but we have one who has been tested in all points as we ourselves are tested, but without sin.

So, the error here is misunderstanding what it means to be tempted in all points. It does not mean Christ had internal desires for these sins and that he overcame them. It means he was externally tempted/tested to see if he had the internal desires and the result was that Jesus had no internal desire to commit sins like lust or lying etc.

How can one be tempted, yet without sin?

Ted

Member

Ted

Ted

Member

Ted

Member

Hide The Pain

Hide The Pain

Ted

Fading curmudgeon

Ted

Sinner

Fading curmudgeon

Hide The Pain

Hide The Pain

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency