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How Badly has Matthew 19:9 been Corrupted?

HIM

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I pray that your silence means you are busy printing a retraction.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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Maybe the OPoster can throw Matt. 5:28 into the mix and tell how many married women have been cheated on?

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

And I would suggest it works in a vice versa manner, women looking upon a man to lust according to Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4 and Deut. 8:3

On this basis a very high percentage of people are perpetual cheaters I would suspect. I'm sure the numbers would be astounding

IF anyone wrangles about the law on any basis of understanding jots, tittles and supposed errors and have not figured out that no sinners are actually compliant with any laws they probably missed the main point altogether and are whistling past the graveyard as they say

Post Script: Everyone other than Jesus was/is/continues to be in the flesh life, a sinner. There is no escaping this conclusion for any reason, no exceptions
 
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robert424

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I pray that your silence means you are busy printing a retraction.
HIM, thank you for your comment.
Did I miss something? Sorry, I'm only on this forum once or twice a week.
'Retraction'? Could you be a little more specific? I'm just a word-counter, and the beauty of numbers, is that it is impossible to argue against them. Either the ει is in only 1% of the Greek New Testament Manuscripts, or it is not - there is no middle ground. So, I stick with that number as a newly discovered fact. Once that number has been discovered there is no erasing it, so there is nothing to retract. No?

As far as my interpretation of the meaning of those numbers - that is a different story altogether. I could, very well be wrong, so then I'd have something to retract.
sincerely
Robert424
 
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robert424

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But the understanding of an exception is there. Here are just the text in Matthew.
HIM, thank you for your well researched reaction to my article.

Yes, I agree that the word 'except' could be substituted into most of the verses that you quote, and it would still make logical sense. And should someone do so, it would be a perfectly valid 'interpretation'.

My main point is that such a strategy would be 'merely' one person's 'interpretation'. In other words, it would not be valid to claim that the writer 'actually wrote' the word 'except'. It is valid to claim that the writer 'meant except', but that is very different than claiming that the writer 'wrote' the word 'except'.

My research shows that the first printed Greek New Testament (GNT) by Erasmus in 1514, had 'ei ma' in Matthew 19:9, but now we know that the Greek word 'ei', [literally 'if'] is only in 1% of the Greek New Testament manuscripts, therefore, it is an error, and even most modern GNTs now remove it. So, now we are left with modern GNTs reading (in Greek Text, translated word-for-word) 'not for fornication'. This means that the GNTs are currently being corrected, but almost all the English New Testaments still have the word 'except'.

The main problem is that in the 'red-letter' editions of the English New Testaments, they have the word 'except'. They are saying that Matthew wrote the word 'except' and that Jesus said he word 'except', but this is not true. They are presenting 'interpretation' or 'opinion' as fact. So, either they have to place square brackets around the word 'except' like this [except] to show that Matthew didn't write the word 'except' and that it is merely someone's interpretation, or get rid of it altogether and just write 'not for fornication' which is the literal word-for-word translation from the Greek.

Anyone is free to claim that 'except' is implied, but that is merely one interpretation, and McFall's interpretation of 'not [even] for fornication', is an equally valid interpretation.

What is needed now, is for Bible Scholars to provide some evidence for their favorite 'interpretation', which so far, has not been forthcoming, but I, for one, am eagerly awaiting such evidence.

sincerely
Robert424
 
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robert424

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Thank you for your observations,

Yes, I agree with your points.

I'm merely using a different strategy and working on a much, much lower level than your points suggest. My fellow Protestants are all saying that the Bible teaches that, under certain circumstances, a divorcee can remarry, thus they are leading all Protestantism into sin by teaching a false doctrine. My strategy is to provide some good reasons why their interpretation of the bible is incorrect, and if they accept my evidence, then maybe they will reform themselves. This requires attention to jots and tittles, in my view. I have to start somewhere.

But I'm open to suggestions as to other strategies.
sincerely
Robert424
 
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robert424

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Link to my main research book which contains all the data with many tables and graphs. It is Public Domain and free for all. word-freq-Matt19-9-2ed : Robert Norvin Crawford : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
robert424
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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My fellow Protestants are all saying that the Bible teaches that, under certain circumstances, a divorcee can remarry, thus they are leading all Protestantism into sin by teaching a false doctrine.
Teaching anyone they can stop being a sinner is a false doctrine, my general point, and also the point of the Gospel.

Everyone is bound to the spirit of disobedience regardless of the long and silky religious cloth and front row seats

A lot of believers give that fact lip service but nevertheless the quest to self justify is so strong that sooner or later that false teaching turns everyone essentially into being liars and hypocrites. The very condition that Jesus seemed to hate the most.

It's also how we go from taking the command to love our neighbors as ourselves into condemning them to potentially burn alive forever for the same sins we all have.

Pity
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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Even paul plainly explains this is wrong lol.
You mean here?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

As here?

Eph. 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

As here?

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

As here?

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Sins are not committed in the vacuum of individuality. No one other than Jesus was/is sinless.

Every spirit of disobedience blames Adam, Eve, our neighbors and everything but ITSELF because "they" are not capable of telling the truth
 
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johansen

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Everyone by default is born spiritually dead.

We then become born again (Lord willing) and are no longer children of disobedience ...

Wherein in time past
Prior to salvation
 
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robert424

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Teaching anyone they can stop being a sinner is a false doctrine, my general point, and also the point of the Gospel.

Everyone is bound to the spirit of disobedience regardless of the long and silky religious cloth and front row seats

A lot of believers give that fact lip service but nevertheless the quest to self justify is so strong that sooner or later that false teaching turns everyone essentially into being liars and hypocrites. The very condition that Jesus seemed to hate the most.

It's also how we go from taking the command to love our neighbors as ourselves into condemning them to potentially burn alive forever for the same sins we all have.

Pity
"Teaching anyone they can stop being a sinner is a false doctrine, my general point, and also the point of the Gospel."

2 Chronicles 7:14 'If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.'
The part that says 'and turn from their wicked ways', appears - at first glance - to contradict your interpretation. As far as I understand it, the whole goal of the call to repentance is to get people to stop sinning. No? Of course, maybe you mean that we, as humans, can never attain that goal, and in that case, yes, you are probably right on that count, but I think that we should still be making our best attempt, just to show God that we are serious - not that it will earn us any reward, nor to impress anyone - but just to show God a little gratitude - an act of worship, if you will. So, it appears like what we are probably saying is not opposites, but probably closer than some would imagine. I don't totally disagree with you - it depends on how it is cut and dried, I suppose. There appears to be some common ground here.
robert424
 
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johansen

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As far as I understand it, the whole goal of the call to repentance is to get people to stop sinning. No? Of course, maybe you mean that we, as humans, can never attain that goal,
Regardless your interpretation of things, the reality is that every other author of the bible has called people to repent.
 
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HIM

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You mean here?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

That is a bad translation. And the teaching you are sharing is not true.

Verses 26 and 27 show what it means by the statement that God promised to take away our sin. It is turn us from ungodliness.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This gift of turning from ungodliness is sure verses 28 and 29 share for God's gift and calling is without repentance.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The gentiles here in verse 30 are being put forth as not being disobedient anymore. So verse 32 does not apply to them at this point because they have received Christ and the Gift that is without repentance from God
.
Rom 11:30 Just as you were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their disobedience,

The "They also may obtain mercy" in verse 31 is in the 3rd person singular and refers to the Jews. And Since the Gentiles are not in disobedience anymore according to verse 26. The Them that are not bound to unbelief as verse 32 is not referring to them.

The Jews need to come to the point to which the Gentiles have in Christ. Where they were formerly disobedient but are now turning from their ungodliness, for God has promised to take away our sin through Jesus.

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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That is a bad translation. And the teaching you are sharing is not true.

Verses 26 and 27 show what it means by the statement that God promised to take away our sin. It is turn us from ungodliness.
God hasn't made anyone sinless yet that I'm aware of IF this is what you are claiming. We can cut right to the chase on this subject.

All people are permanent sinners in our current state. And that sin is as the scriptures show, "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15. We all come before God with an evil conscience intact, Heb. 10:22

It is those who teach sinlessness is an achievable reality who are actually quite thoroughly deceived. Not that scriptures blame people for the issue mind you. Sins are not counted against people, just to make it more interesting and get things pointed in the right direction. 2 Cor. 5:19

As to "bad translations" I think the NIV in this case is spot on and quite in accord with Eph. 2:2, 2 Cor. 4:4 and many others.
The Jews need to come to the point to which the Gentiles have in Christ. Where they were formerly disobedient but are now turning from their ungodliness, for God has promised to take away our sin through Jesus.

That is not the case, as Paul stated, even enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to the Jews are in fact saved and included in the "ALL OF ISRAEL," saved for the sake of their fathers. Paul specifically isolates those who "are" enemies, present tense. And in Romans 11:8 Paul shows that there is a reason they can't see or hear, because God put a spirit of slumber upon them. There is nothing they can do about it, just as we can not unbind ourselves from the spirit of disobedience, that God Himself bound us all with.

This reality is instantly realized when we concede that we are tempted withIN by the tempter, our adversary. It's not just about "us" as individuals in this matter. We do engage in a wrestling match, meaning there is an opponent in view.

I consider those who claim sinlessness to be religiously delusional myself. Nothing personal.

Jesus was abundantly clear that evil comes from within and that evil thoughts defile all of us. It was not presented as "an option." Mark 7:21-23 is just as true today as it was in the Garden for both Adam and Eve.

Paul also advised us that we are no better than anyone else when it comes to sin, Romans 3:9. And that the law was given precisely to shut us all up and make us all GUILTY as charged. Romans 3:19

All of this to know that we are saved based on nothing from ourselves. No performances. No acts sufficient. No obligation put upon God because of what we did to make Him Bound to do something for us.

Grace Alone through Christ, in His Eternal Mercy
 
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Dan Perez

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Here are 4 words that I always see !

# 1 THE ARGUMENT

# 2 THE PREMISE

# 3 THE CONCLUSION

Then , is this ARGUMENT for today and I say NO .

# 4 It is speaking to ISRAEL

# 5 AND 1 Cor 7:1-17 speaks to your ARGUMENT for the Body of Christ , right on the button !

dan p
 
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