How are back in History do Restorationist go?

IGNATIUS to the Smyrnaeans

CHAPTER 0 0:0 Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, to the church of God the Father and of Jesus Christ the Beloved, which hath been mercifully endowed with every grace, being filled with faith and love and lacking in no grace, most reverend and bearing holy treasures; to the church which is in Smyrna of Asia, in a blameless spirit and in the word of God abundant greeting.

CHAPTER 1 1:1 I give glory to Jesus Christ the God who bestowed such wisdom upon you; for I have perceived that ye are established in faith immovable, being as it were nailed on the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, in flesh and in spirit, and firmly grounded in love in the blood of Christ, fully persuaded as touching our Lord that He is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, but Son of God by the Divine will and power, truly born of a virgin and baptized by John that _all righteousness might be fulfilled_ by Him, 1:2 truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch (of which fruit are we -- that is, of His most blessed passion); that _He might set up an ensign_ unto all the ages through His resurrection, for His saints and faithful people, whether among Jews or among Gentiles, in one body of His Church.

CHAPTER 2 2:1 For He suffered all these things for our sakes [that we might be saved]; and He suffered truly, as also He raised Himself truly; not as certain unbelievers say, that He suffered in semblance, being themselves mere semblance. And according as their opinions are, so shall it happen to them, for they are without body and demon-like.

CHAPTER 3 3:1 For I know and believe that He was in the flesh even after the resurrection; 3:2 and when He came to Peter and his company, He said to them, _Lay hold and handle me, and see that I am not a demon without body._ And straightway they touched Him, and they believed, being joined unto His flesh and His blood. Wherefore also they despised death, nay they were found superior to death. 3:3 And after His resurrection He [both] ate with them and drank with them as one in the flesh, though spiritually He was united with the Father.

CHAPTER 4 4:1 But these things I warn you, dearly beloved, knowing that ye yourselves are so minded. Howbeit I watch over you betimes to protect you from wild beasts in human form -- men whom not only should ye not receive, but, if it were possible, not so much as meet [them]; only pray ye for them, if haply they may repent. This indeed is difficult, but Jesus Christ, our true life, hath power over it. 4:2 For if these things were done by our Lord in semblance, then am I also a prisoner in semblance. And why then have I delivered myself over to death, unto fire, unto sword, unto wild beasts? But near to the sword, near to God; in company with wild beasts, in company with God. Only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ, so that we may suffer together with Him. I endure all things, seeing that He Himself enableth me, who is perfect Man.

CHAPTER 5 5:1 But certain persons ignorantly deny Him, or rather have been denied by Him, being advocates of death rather than of the truth; and they have not been persuaded by the prophecies nor by the law of Moses, nay nor even to this very hour by the Gospel, nor by the sufferings of each of us severally; 5:2 for they are of the same mind also concerning us. For what profit is it [to me], if a man praiseth me, but blasphemeth my Lord, not confessing that He was a bearer of flesh? Yet he that affirmeth not this, doth thereby deny Him altogether, being himself a bearer of a corpse. 5:3 But their names, being unbelievers, I have not thought fit to record in writing; nay, far be it from me even to remember them, until they repent and return to the passion, which is our resurrection.

CHAPTER 6 6:1 Let no man be deceived. Even the heavenly beings and the glory of the angels and the rulers visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ [who is God], judgment awaiteth them also. _He that receiveth let him receive._ Let not office puff up any man; for faith and love are all in all, and nothing is preferred before them. 6:2 But mark ye those who hold strange doctrine touching the grace of Jesus Christ which came to us, how that they are contrary to the mind of God. They have no care for love, none for the widow, none for the orphan, none for the afflicted, none for the prisoner, none for the hungry or thirsty. They abstain from eucharist (thanksgiving) and prayer, because they allow not that the eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which flesh suffered for our sins, and which the Father of His goodness raised up.

CHAPTER 7 7:1 They therefore that gainsay the good gift of God perish by their questionings. But it were expedient for them to have love, that they may also rise again. 7:2 It is therefore meet that ye should abstain from such, and not speak of them either privately or in public; but should give heed to the Prophets, and especially to the Gospel, wherein the passion is shown unto us and the resurrection is accomplished.

CHAPTER 8 8:1 [But] shun divisions, as the beginning of evils. Do ye all follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to the deacons pay respect, as to God's commandment. Let no man do aught of things pertaining to the Church apart from the bishop. Let that be held a valid eucharist which is under the bishop or one to whom he shall have committed it. 8:2 Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be; even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal Church. It is not lawful apart from the bishop either to baptize or to hold a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve, this is well-pleasing also to God; that everything which ye do may be sure and valid.

CHAPTER 9 9:1 It is reasonable henceforth that we wake to soberness, while we have [still] time to repent and turn to God. It is good to recognise God and the bishop. He that honoureth the bishop is houroured of God; he that doeth aught without the knowledge of the bishop rendereth service to the devil. 9:2 May all things therefore abound unto you in grace, for ye are worthy. Ye refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ shall refresh you. In my absence and in my presence ye cherished me. May God recompense you; for whose sake if ye endure all things, ye shall attain unto Him.

CHAPTER 10 10:1 Philo and Rhaius Agathopus, who followed me in the cause of God, ye did well to receive as ministers of [Christ] God; who also give thanks to the Lord for you, because ye refreshed them in every way. Nothing shall be lost to you. 10:2 My spirit is devoted for you, as also are my bonds, which ye despised not, neither were ashamed of them. Nor shall He, who is perfect faithfulness, be ashamed of you, even Jesus Christ.

CHAPTER 11 11:1 Your prayer sped forth unto the church which is in Antioch of Syria; whence coming a prisoner in most godly bonds I salute all men, though I am not worthy to belong to it, being the very last of them. By the Divine will was this vouchsafed to me, not of my own complicity, but by God's grace, which I pray may be given to me perfectly, that through your prayers I may attain unto God. 11:2 Therefore that your work may be perfected both on earth and in heaven, it is meet that your church should appoint, for the honour of God, an ambassador of God that he may go as far as Syria and congratulate them because they are at peace, and have recovered their proper stature, and their proper bulk hath been restored to them. 11:3 It seemed to me therefore a fitting thing that ye should send one of your own people with a letter, that he might join with them in giving glory for the calm which by God's will had overtaken them, and because they were already reaching a haven through your prayers. Seeing ye are perfect, let your counsels also be perfect; for if ye desire to do well, God is ready to grant the means.

CHAPTER 12 12:1 The love of the brethren which are in Troas saluteth you; from whence also I write to you by the hand of Burrhus, whom ye sent with me jointly with the Ephesians your brethren. He hath refreshed me in all ways. And I would that all imitated him, for he is an ensample of the ministry of God. The Divine grace shall requite him in all things. 12:2 I salute your godly bishop and your venerable presbytery [and] my fellow-servants the deacons, and all of you severally and in a body, in the name of Jesus Christ, and in His flesh and blood, in His passion and resurrection, which was both carnal and spiritual, in the unity of God and of yourselves. Grace to you, mercy, peace, patience, always.

CHAPTER 13 13:1 I salute the households of my brethren with their wives and children, and the virgins who are called widows. I bid you farewell in the power of the Father. Philo, who is with me, saluteth you. 13:2 I salute the household of Gavia, and I pray that she may be grounded in faith and love both of flesh and of spirit. I salute Alce, a name very dear to me, and Daphnus the incomparable, and Eutecnus, and all by name. Fare ye well in the grace of God.

I chose to post it instead so that my first post referencing it, would be more easily read. You should spend some time reading these and about them.

Jack Bauer said:

See what I mean. Perfect example of no academic or intellectual honesty contained within these comments. It also is the opposite example of what Christ taught us to be, charitable.

www dot earlychristianwritings dot com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-lightfoot.html

Written around 107 A.D.

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It's also an opposite example to cheat a hyper link in when new members are not allowed to do so, yet.

If you want to be a Catholic, Jack Bauer, or whoever you are seeing he is a fictitious television character, please, enjoy it. But, if and when you ever come to realize the Catholic Church did atrocities in the name of Christ, AND never removed the dictates to do such things from the "official church writings," then perhaps you should, can I say this, RECANT, on your view.

I'll trust the testimony of humble disciples of Christ rather than wealthy Popes and Bishops who ordered the death of millions.

Ben

a pilgrim said:

It's also an opposite example to cheat a hyper link in when new members are not allowed to do so, yet.

If you want to be a Catholic, Jack Bauer, or whoever you are seeing he is a fictitious television character, please, enjoy it. But, if and when you ever come to realize the Catholic Church did atrocities in the name of Christ, AND never removed the dictates to do such things from the "official church writings," then perhaps you should, can I say this, RECANT, on your view.

I'll trust the testimony of humble disciples of Christ rather than wealthy Popes and Bishops who ordered the death of millions.

Ben

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You are deceiving yourself, brother. It was realizing what was done in the hands of Catholic leaders, including some Popes, that led me out of the Catholic Church. I know for a fact that you know nothing of "Church writing" based on what you just said about removing "such things from 'official church writings'". Your concupiscence is showing.

Where do we begin then. The Church provided you with the bible. How do you know which books belong in the book we call the bible? When and where was the canon decided and who made the decision.

Please provide me with the "orders to kill" so that I can add it to my list of readings. You talk pretty big for someone who doesn't have a clue about what you claim to know.

Matt 16: no less than bishops, the Apostles, had the authority to bind and lose
Matt 23: Chair of Moses, a concept stripped form the minds of bible only Christians

Matt 28: power to forgive and bind sins

Jump back in time and lets talk about the Jews and their decision to choose a king, like the other nations. This decision brought much pain to the people of God and ultimately was never disolved. It was carried into the New Testament Church.

John 6, if you do not believe the bread and wine are actually the real body and blood of Christ, then by definition according to the ancient Church fathers and the disciples, makes on a heretic. Remember how the disciples of Christ walked away from Jesus after he repeated this 3 or more times? They walked away. Jesus then turned to his apostles and remaining disciples and said, "are you going to leave me too". No. They said "to whom shall we go?" They believed he was the messiah. I don't know what you really think about Catholicism in your resistant mind, but what you think you know isn't anything close to the truth. Coming from a catechized Catholic, who knows about the Church of Christ you preach and the ancient church Christ founded, you should stop talking and take up a pen to learn something true before trying to disprove it. I've been trying to disprove it for a very long time and still can't come up with any valid reason for it not to be true. The example of some clergy is atrocious. It angers me and I know it angers God. They are earning their just rewards for doing and covering up their lies. But truth lies within the most precious gift Christ gave us - the Eucharist. Without it we do not have life within us.

The dogmas that are scoffed at are not new, they were believed by the early Christians if you actually take the time to read about what they believed. Why do you study Philo and Josephus, when you refuse to read anything by early Christians? Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Policarp, Justin Martyr, Iranaeus, etc. etc.

In other words, brother, if you want to have an intelligent conversation that doesn't discard known historical documents, we can have a discussion to give you time to prove me wrong. The problem with this offer is that I know you will fail. The truth will shatter your faith, and I don't want to shatter you, but encourage you.

I was in the process of becoming a preacher and chaplain for the military when I came across these documents totally shattering my faith in the COC, as you know it. It was very disturbing and I did NOT want to be Catholic at all. I hated the Catholic Church because I too believe it was the "harlot of Babylon." I believed that those who professed a different gospel other than the COC were bound to hell. BUt so many things made no sense and as I asked questions for so called "bible educated" and degreed men about significant questions, I knew something was wrong, which led me to asking the simple question, "who decided to include the writings in the bible and why?"

Tradition and tradition are really two different things. Sacred Tradition is that part of the "deposit of faith" left by the Apostles, ultimately included in the New Testament. Man's tradition what you keep calling Sacred Tradition, which is very odd and bazaar. Paul never told us to hold fast to the bible. he commanded us to stand fast to the teachings and traditions passed down to us.

2 Thes 2:15


15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

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This passage really challenged me and I tried everything to disprove it. But it's bible, not apocrypha. I have many more like this and can help you understand Catholic teaching so that you can work on saving us much better than what you believe now. the evil acts of some men, as I have experienced by some pretty evil elders, preachers and deacons, and their wives, was a major eye opener for me. I couldn't believe they actually did what they did. Procelytizers, which is accepted as "charity" in order to save a soul. Well, if I stepped up to the plate to elaborate on what the Church teaching means, you would become very uneasy. The Church speaks about salvation outside the Church as impossible. But "IF" they are saved it is only through the Catholic Church, Universal Church, visible Church.

By your philosophy, Jesus was a raving lunitic that didn't know how to choose disciples to pass down his teachings because you teach that the Church immediately went into apostasy. That was when the "real Church of Christ went under ground..." What happened to the providence of God. And you expect everyone to accept the made up histories throughout time, with no evidence. I could say someone was a tax evader all day long and expect people to accept what I say because "I know". "I know" is not evidence for the kinds of things you think are true.

Jack Bauer said:

. . . . .

Where do we begin then. The Church provided you with the bible. How do you know which books belong in the book we call the bible? When and where was the canon decided and who made the decision.

. . . .

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That's funny. The Jews gave you the Bible. To hear you talk, a person would think that the Catholic Church wrote the NT and preserved the OT.

The Jews preserved the OT and wrote the NT. All your church did was select the books that you wanted included in "your" copy. That is all.

How many translations done by non-Catholics did your church have destroyed? And then have the gall to say that "we gave you the Bible?"

We have access to the manuscripts now, and my copy was translated by the Churches of Christ. Your church didn't have anything to do with it.

Such is the way I used to be once. I've set my arrogance aside as my ignorance becomes less inhibiting to truth. I have no bone to pick with you, but you have obviously the same COC attitude I've become accustomed to over the past 2 decades. May God grant you faith, hope and charity.

Peace.

Signed, someone who has had enough of this non-sense.

Coach, you know very well why the Churches of Christ claim to be part of the Restoration Movement. In fact they have often referred to this group as THE Restoration Movement because of Walter Scott's manufactured idea that the church need to "restore the ancient gospel for the remission of sins." That' where that came from. Walter Scott came over from Scotland about the time that Robert Sandeman came over with his own brand of the Restoration Movement which had begun in Scotland. Scott and Sandeman had Presbyterian backgrounds and both were dismayed with the Presbyterian Church in England because of the hierarchy of that group that imposed certain doctrine and restrictions that they opposed. Christ's Body has never been in danger of needing restoration. It cannot be defeated. Satan and sin and death were all defeated on the cross.

What did Christ say about His church?
Matt 16:18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

I believe in principles, there we're more restoration movement across time, some of which we do not really have written history. Some wear different names, still in principle we're getting back to Christ and the apostles teachings.