How and why we keep the Sabbath holy...

ChrisCarol · Nov 22, 2011

k4c said:
You show me your faith by what you say I'll show you my faith by what I do. Faith without works is dead.

This is the work of God, that you believe on His Son John 6:29

I believe therefore:

I believe in life everlasting because of what He did not anything that I could ever do that would allow me to be in the presence of God. He loved me/and you so much that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.(do not try to add something to what He has already accomplished)

I have trusted God to be with me as my husband lay near death for 3 days?

I have trusted God as our son suffered the loss of his wife of only 5 years?

I have trusted God as my Dr. told me. you probably have a brain tumor which caused the seizure?

I have continued to trust God thru 13 years after my husband had a massive heart attack and is now having arythmia problems for which he gets a shock from his implanted defibulator.

May God thru His Spirit give you understanding.

k4c · Nov 22, 2011

ChrisCarol said:
This is the work of God, that you believe on His Son John 6:29

I believe therefore:

I believe in life everlasting because of what He did not anything that I could ever do that would allow me to be in the presence of God. He loved me/and you so much that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.(do not try to add something to what He has already accomplished)

I have trusted God to be with me as my husband lay near death for 3 days?

I have trusted God as our son suffered the loss of his wife of only 5 years?

I have trusted God as my Dr. told me. you probably have a brain tumor which caused the seizure?

I have continued to trust God thru 13 years after my husband had a massive heart attack and is now having arythmia problems for which he gets a shock from his implanted defibulator.

May God thru His Spirit give you understanding.

I trust my insurance company with the same tragedies but I don't love my insurance company.

Hupomone10 · Nov 22, 2011

I'm sorry. I forgot this one wasn't answered.

These verses were in answer to posts about the assertion that we are a part of something called "spiritual Israel." So, the implication if I understand you right is that when you say we "have to be grafted in" you are referring to our being grafted into Israel.

k4c said:
Hebrews 8:8, 8:10

You have to be grafted in like a wild olive branch.

I won't address these verses in particular, for they don't reference being grafted at all. They speak of the new covenant with the house of Israel, and as Paul indicated, it would only be effected in the remnant of Jews because only a remnant would believe in the Messiah, just as it had always only been a remnant. The difference now being that both Jews and Gentiles were in the new covenant, the body of Christ. And only a remnant of the Gentiles would enter also. But that's really another discussion. Now, as to grafting...

Please look again at these scriptures and you will see that they, like us, are branches, and that we, like they, are branches grafted into the root, which is Christ. We are not grafted into Israel. This harmonizes with the vine and branches example of John 15.

Consider the following from Romans 11:
16 ...and if the root (God and Christ) be holy, the branches are too. (who are the branches? we will see)
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive,...
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches...
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me...
4 As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself...
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches...

Israelites are not the root, they are branches, natural branches. We are also branches, analogous to wild branches. We are not grafted into Israel - not literal Israel, and not spiritual Israel. We are grafted into the root and vine, which is Christ.

Hupomone10 · Nov 22, 2011

numlock321 said:
have you noticed "ordinances,which was contrary to us"? ... now since you dont believe sabbath in the new covenant...

here is a strong evidence that Christ came not to destroy the law

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

now noticed verse 5:18

since we now that the earth and heavens are still here the above verse 5:17 is re enforced.. the Sabbath was not contrary to the new covenant. the Sabbath was a Memorial of Gods creation and to let us now also that there is God who Created all things.!

There are 613 commandments in the Old Testament. If you've interpreted Jesus' words correctly, that Christ's words mean you must mechanically obey the sabbath commandment and that this is included in the "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" then the other 612 commands of the Old Testament must also be included in the "one jot and one tittle."

The commandment of circumcision is so often given as the example by non-Sabbatarians because of the verses in Galatians. So, we can start by blowing that one off; but that still leaves us with 611 more to come up with excuses for.

If you would like to get a head start on fulfilling these commandments, there is a good list in "Wilmington's Guide to the Bible."

"The total number of the biblical commandments (precepts and prohibitions) is given in rabbinic tradition as 613. It is held that all 613 were revealed to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and that they fall into two classifications:
1. Mandatory laws - 248 in number...
2. Prohibition laws - 365 in number...
- "Wilmington's Guide to the Bible"

We can justify it all we want, but if Christ didn't fulfill the requirement of the Law, with the exceptions listed in the New Testament, then in the end there is no justification for our dismissing these other 612.

Let us start with #10: "the shema must be recited each morning and evening (Deut. 6:7)"

Do you observe this commandment? Rebuttals (justifications) welcome...

numlock321 · Nov 22, 2011

in the beginning, what was the work of God here being implied in the Sabbath?

simple God created heavens and earth in six days and rested in the seventh and sanctified it..

so in general, there is a day where God Sanctified and rested on it.. which is the Sabbath...

so therefore the Sabbath was not only for the jew but for all..

and the ten commandments where never been removed... if it was, then can we steal? murder? etc... and from the ten commandment sabbath was bound on it... thats why it is called "Ten Commandment" not "Nine Commandment"

where talking about sabbath here dont get too far

Hupomone10 · Nov 23, 2011

numlock321 said:
and the ten commandments where never been removed... if it was, then can we steal? murder? etc...

Because, even though being dead to the Law by being "in Christ", the Spirit describes the behavior that should be exemplified by the person who follows the Spirit; and that behavior is shown by repeating every moral command of the ten commandments, but doesn't anywhere in the New Covenant repeat the command to do whatever it is you think it's telling you to do on the Sabbath, which I've repeatedly asked and you and others refuse to define for me.

where talking about sabbath here dont get too far

And I'm showing you examples of other commandments to illustrate to you that 1) obsession over one commandment (the sabbath) is exactly that - an obsession, and 2) if you go down that road of legalism bound to the commandments of the OT,, there isn't only one commandment - the Sabbath - there are 613 commandments. I'm willing to go down that road to illustrate this principle as long and as many times as needed to illustrate this point.

So, please stop doing the forum shuffle and avoiding my points both here and in the previous post. Please answer the question about the commandment above. Do you keep it also? And do you give as much time and thought to it as you do the Sabbath command?

k4c · Nov 23, 2011

Hupomone10 said:
I'm sorry. I forgot this one wasn't answered.

These verses were in answer to posts about the assertion that we are a part of something called "spiritual Israel." So, the implication if I understand you right is that when you say we "have to be grafted in" you are referring to our being grafted into Israel.

I won't address these verses in particular, for they don't reference being grafted at all. They speak of the new covenant with the house of Israel, and as Paul indicated, it would only be effected in the remnant of Jews because only a remnant would believe in the Messiah, just as it had always only been a remnant. The difference now being that both Jews and Gentiles were in the new covenant, the body of Christ. And only a remnant of the Gentiles would enter also. But that's really another discussion. Now, as to grafting...

Please look again at these scriptures and you will see that they, like us, are branches, and that we, like they, are branches grafted into the root, which is Christ. We are not grafted into Israel. This harmonizes with the vine and branches example of John 15.

Consider the following from Romans 11:
16 ...and if the root (God and Christ) be holy, the branches are too. (who are the branches? we will see)
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive,...
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches...
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me...
4 As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself...
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches...

Israelites are not the root, they are branches, natural branches. We are also branches, analogous to wild branches. We are not grafted into Israel - not literal Israel, and not spiritual Israel. We are grafted into the root and vine, which is Christ.

Amen...

Ephesians 2:11-12 tells us what we were like prior to being grafted in.

numlock321 · Nov 23, 2011

just wat i said there are laws that are nailed to the cross.. because it was contrary to the new covenant.. you can read pauls writing telling us to not covet and steal, it was taken in the ten commandments.. how can we live according to the spirit if we have no obedience.. remember faith results to obedience to God.. faith alone will not save you if you dont have obedience to God... just like believing to master but does not obey what the masters wants....

ChrisCarol · Nov 23, 2011

Originally Posted by ChrisCarol

This is the work of God, that you believe on His Son John 6:29

I believe therefore:

*I believe in life everlasting because of what He did not anything that I could ever do that would allow me to be in the presence of God. He loved me/and you so much that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.(do not try to add something to what He has already accomplished)

k4c said:
I trust my insurance company with the same tragedies but I don't love my insurance company.

*No insurance company will give you this!

How about you give me your works, remembering:

Ephesians 2:8-10

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

May God be glorified because we believe HIM.

1 Peter 4:10-12

10As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

k4c · Nov 23, 2011

ChrisCarol said:
*No insurance company will give you this!

How about you give me your works, remembering:

Ephesians 2:8-10

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

May God be glorified because we believe HIM.

1 Peter 4:10-12

10As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Salvation is more than an insurance policy out of hell or just getting your ticket punched on the glory train to heaven.

Can a fruitless faith save a person?

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith save him?

When a person in saved, by gace through faith, he comes alive unto God.

Faith is made complete when it is accompaied with works.

James 2:21-22 Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.

This new life in Christ will be full of works.

Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

Titus 2:14 He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for Himself a people for His own possession, eager to do good works.

Titus 3:8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.

These works will performed by a power within you that is not of yourself.

ChrisCarol · Nov 23, 2011

k4c said:
Salvation is more than an insurance policy out of hell or just getting your ticket punched on the glory train to heaven.

Can a fruitless faith save a person?

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith save him?

When a person in saved, by gace through faith, he comes alive unto God.

Faith is made complete when it is accompaied with works.

James 2:21-22 Wasnt Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.

This new life in Christ will be full of works.

Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

Titus 2:14 He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for Himself a people for His own possession, eager to do good works.

Titus 3:8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.

These works will performed by a power within you that is not of yourself.

Proverbs 16:25
25 There is a way which seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.

I have given you the scripture which explicitly says what the Work of God is but you choose to ignore because you cannot get out of the box of your understanding.

How about you tell me what these works are, OK? BTW I would need them from the Bible and the Bible alone.

Hupomone10 · Nov 23, 2011

And as I predicted, the justification...

numlock321 said:
just wat i said there are laws that are nailed to the cross..

...and I suppose there are those that were not nailed to the cross, the foremost of which I suppose would be the 4th commandment.That's very convenient shuffling of the Word of God for the sake of one's theological comfort box, wouldn't you say?

(the following is a bump forward due to being missed ...
This was for numlock, but k4c your welcome to chime in here as well...)

There are 613 commandments in the Old Testament. If you've interpreted Jesus' words correctly, that Christ's words mean you must continue to obey the sabbath commandment and that this is included in the "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" then the other 612 commands of the Old Testament must also be included in the "one jot and one tittle."

...

"The total number of the biblical commandments (precepts and prohibitions) is given in rabbinic tradition as 613. It is held that all 613 were revealed to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and that they fall into two classifications:
1. Mandatory laws - 248 in number...
2. Prohibition laws - 365 in number...
- "Wilmington's Guide to the Bible"

We can justify it all we want, but if Christ didn't fulfill the requirement of the Law, with the exceptions listed in the New Testament, then in the end there is no justification for our dismissing these other 612.

Let us start with #10: "the shema must be recited each morning and evening (Deut. 6:7)"

Do you observe this commandment? Is it important? How does it rate compared to the 4th commandment? If it is equal, why do we not hear much about it? Certainly it is violated as much or more than the Sabbath.?

k4c · Nov 23, 2011

ChrisCarol said:
Proverbs 16:25
25 There is a way which seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.

I have given you the scripture which explicitly says what the Work of God is but you choose to ignore because you cannot get out of the box of your understanding.

How about you tell me what these works are, OK? BTW I would need them from the Bible and the Bible alone.

Your works are how you live your life to the glory of God.

k4c · Nov 23, 2011

Hupomone10 said:
And as I predicted, the justification......and I suppose there are those that were not nailed to the cross, the foremost of which I suppose would be the 4th commandment.That's very convenient shuffling of the Word of God for the sake of one's theological comfort box, wouldn't you say?

(the following is a bump forward due to being missed ...
This was for numlock, but k4c your welcome to chime in here as well...)

There are 613 commandments in the Old Testament. If you've interpreted Jesus' words correctly, that Christ's words mean you must continue to obey the sabbath commandment and that this is included in the "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" then the other 612 commands of the Old Testament must also be included in the "one jot and one tittle."

.
"The total number of the biblical commandments (precepts and prohibitions) is given in rabbinic tradition as 613. It is held that all 613 were revealed to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and that they fall into two classifications:
1. Mandatory laws - 248 in number...
2. Prohibition laws - 365 in number...
- "Wilmington's Guide to the Bible"

We can justify it all we want, but if Christ didn't fulfill the requirement of the Law, with the exceptions listed in the New Testament, then in the end there is no justification for our dismissing these other 612.

Let us start with #10: "the shema must be recited each morning and evening (Deut. 6:7)"

Do you observe this commandment? Is it important? How does it rate compared to the 4th commandment? If it is equal, why do we not hear much about it? Certainly it is violated as much or more than the Sabbath.?

The words of Jesus set the standard for the new covenant. I know this whole debate is because of the seventh day. Take some time and read the teachings of Jesus regarding the Sabbath.

numlock321 · Nov 23, 2011

... ok i will made this clear again not all laws were nailed to the cross but some are... the nailed ones was against to the new covenant.! think about all the laws that are against to the new covenant.. as far as i know the ten commandments was not being nailed including the sabbath.. therefore Sabbath is still the lords day and must be kept holy... can you make sunday holy? did God himself taught us about sunday making it holy?

EastCoastRemnant · Nov 23, 2011

K4C and Numlock, it is sadly obvious that you are throwing pearls to those that cannot/will not see the truth. You are on a merry-go-round of debate that does not produce fruit. Save your Spirit given wisdom for those that are seeking...

ChrisCarol, you speak of being in a box... you ascribe to the majority understanding of Christianity, Sunday worship. We are the minority.... who does the scripture say has the truth, the majority or the minority?

Why is it no one from the Law fulfilled/abolished camp speaks to how 9 are still in effect but strangely, only one was removed, with no authorization.

Merlinius · Nov 23, 2011

I keep the Sabbath Holy twenty four hours a day, seven days a week... every day always and forever! As is the true meaning

In the Day of the Lord,
Merling

EastCoastRemnant · Nov 23, 2011

Merlinius said:
I keep the Sabbath Holy twenty four hours a day, seven days a week... every day always and forever! As is the true meaning

In the Day of the Lord,
Merling

You must have made that up yourself for the Bible is very explicit on which day is the Sabbath.

Can you provide scripture to show us that the true meaning of Sababth is 24/7?

EastCoastRemnant · Nov 23, 2011

This is for any non Adventist... what do you make of this verse?

John 5:28-29
the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and will come outthose who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

It seems, to me, to support not only soul sleep til Christs return but also speaks clearly on works being salvational... more specifically obedience to His Commands.

Merlinius · Nov 23, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
You must have made that up yourself for the Bible is very explicit on which day is the Sabbath.

Can you provide scripture to show us that the true meaning of Sababth is 24/7?

No, it's not made up lol. It is what the Rest in Christ is all about. It's in the New Testament. It's what the O.T. "seventh day" shadow type pointed forward to. You didn't know that? The entering into the land as the "rest"?

And of course I can show you what the real Rest in Christ is as I've shared

But first, since you evidently challenge my Rest in Christ, how about you show me in the New Covenant (New Testament) where I'm not in Christ's rest!

The onus is on you.

How and why we keep the Sabbath holy...

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