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rainbowprism said:Ok the gold tablets that had the revelation for Joeseph Smith.... if they were truly the size that Mr Smith claimed they were and were in fact gold-they would have been impossible for just him to carry. Also those things that he used to decipher the tablets (I'm sorry I forgot the names), hows come nobody even saw just those, let alone the tablets.
rainbowprism said:Yeah I believe so.
Let me take your questions in reverse order:rainbowprism said:Ok the gold tablets that had the revelation for Joeseph Smith.... if they were truly the size that Mr Smith claimed they were and were in fact gold-they would have been impossible for just him to carry. Also those things that he used to decipher the tablets (I'm sorry I forgot the names), hows come nobody even saw just those, let alone the tablets.
I have seen "witness" testimonies negating or disclaiming some of the witnesses made in the BofM though. I'm not attacking by mentioning this, just seeking to understand. I'm still wary bout the plates though....Alma said:Let me take your questions in reverse order:
3) How come nobody even saw just those, let alone the tablets?
Three other people besides Joseph Smith were shown the Urim and Thummim and testified to that fact on many instances. In addition to Joseph Smith 11 other people saw the plates and you can read their statement in the front of each edition of the Book of Mormon. Many of those witnesses left Mormonism yet none ever retracted or denied his witness as printed in the book.
2) Those things he used to decipher were called the urim and thummim. Several of the witnesses left detailed descriptions of these objects.
1) If the plates were really the size as described by Joseph Smith, and if they were really gold, they would have been too heavy to carry around.
If you had a block of solid gold that size, this is true, but a friend of mine who is expert at ornamental metal work fabricated a set of plates using the descriptions of the witnesses. He made his plates out of hammered brass. He then calculated the difference of weight between brass and pure gold and added the difference in lead. The plates weigh about 55 lbs. Certainly 55 pounds would have been difficult to carry around, but I have carried these and while difficult it is doable for someone of my size and weight. I will have the plates in my possession for a while in September. Ill weigh them and give you an exact amount at that time.
It isnt likely that the plates were solid gold because with each page being the thickness of common tin, engraving characters on the plate makes it so you can only engrave one side. Its more logical that the plates would be etched by acid (easily obtained). But if the plates were 24 K gold, acid wouldnt etch them. However, by making a copper/gold alloy (known as tumbaga in Central America), acid would eat away the copper and leave a very legible script. The same friend who built the plates made a gold alloy and tried it.
Of course, since he expected people to disregard the weight of the plates if he supposed it were a mix of gold with copper, he weighted the plates as if they were pure gold.
Alma
Yes, lots of people have claimed that the fact that some of the witnesses were expelled from the church or became enemies of Joseph Smith somehow negates what they initially claimed and continued to claim throughout their lives. I personally think their testimonies are incredibly powerful. In fact for eyewitness testimony there were more to the Book of Mormon than have survived for the resurrection. Only Matthew, John, Peter, Paul, Jude and perhaps Luke qualify as eyewitnesses. Compared that to the 11 witnesses of the plates and Joseph Smith and you have twice as many whose testimony would be valid in a court of law. Now, I know somebody is going to say, "You're wrong, there were over 500 who saw Jesus at one time." But that isn't the same. They didn't leave their witness, they're simply mentioned by one of the witnesses.rainbowprism said:I have seen "witness" testimonies negating or disclaiming some of the witnesses made in the BofM though. I'm not attacking by mentioning this, just seeking to understand. I'm still wary bout the plates though....
Hi there!Alma said:...
3) How come nobody even saw just those, let alone the tablets?
Three other people besides Joseph Smith were shown the Urim and Thummim and testified to that fact on many instances. In addition to Joseph Smith 11 other people saw the plates and you can read their statement in the front of each edition of the Book of Mormon. Many of those witnesses left Mormonism yet none ever retracted or denied his witness as printed in the book.
2) Those things he used to decipher were called the urim and thummim. Several of the witnesses left detailed descriptions of these objects....
Alma
Well, in Revelation Jesus wore a golden breastplate, equally unliftable if it's pure gold. There's a spiritual dimension to these "plates" described as gold.rainbowprism said:Ok the gold tablets that had the revelation for Joeseph Smith.... if they were truly the size that Mr Smith claimed they were and were in fact gold-they would have been impossible for just him to carry.
You're mistakenly referring to the accounts of Joseph Smith using a chocolate colored stone that he allegedly placed in the bottom of his hat. The urim and thummim was something else, which he didn't use in the presence of others. I think it's interesting that a Rabbi can tell you exactly how this was used when no one else is quite that confident.Serapha said:Hi there!
I've had the priviledge of visiting The Temple Institute in Israel under the instruction of a Rabbi. The Temple Institute is the place in Israel where the Jewish people are accummulating the furnishings for the third temple.
In the Temple Institute there is a large painting of the High Priest going into the Holy of Holies and it displays how the urim and the thummin worked, and the Rabbi explained it to me further in more detail.
It seems that the urim and thummin that Joseph Smith claimed to have received, were not used in the same manner, but rather that he looked into a "hat" for the revelation. Interestingly, the urim and thummin of the Bible required light to "reflect" the message from God. The urim and thummin of the bom required darkness. Why?
~serapha~
It isn't a "jail certificate, it a "trial bill" for costs incurred in a trial. It's not as important as most people think it is.Mother Vashti said:Serapha, I've heard about the "hat reading" thing too. It's similar to the treasure-hunting scam that Joseph Smith was jailed before the Vision. Sorry Alma; there's not only witnesses to the "hat thing", there's a photocopy of Smith's jail certificate online.
Hi there!Alma said:1) If the plates were really the size as described by Joseph Smith, and if they were really gold, they would have been too heavy to carry around.
If you had a block of solid gold that size, this is true, but a friend of mine who is expert at ornamental metal work fabricated a set of plates using the descriptions of the witnesses. He made his plates out of hammered brass. He then calculated the difference of weight between brass and pure gold and added the difference in lead. The plates weigh about 55 lbs. Certainly 55 pounds would have been difficult to carry around, but I have carried these and while difficult it is doable for someone of my size and weight. I will have the plates in my possession for a while in September. Ill weigh them and give you an exact amount at that time.
It isnt likely that the plates were solid gold because with each page being the thickness of common tin, engraving characters on the plate makes it so you can only engrave one side. Its more logical that the plates would be etched by acid (easily obtained). But if the plates were 24 K gold, acid wouldnt etch them. However, by making a copper/gold alloy (known as tumbaga in Central America), acid would eat away the copper and leave a very legible script. The same friend who built the plates made a gold alloy and tried it.
Of course, since he expected people to disregard the weight of the plates if he supposed it were a mix of gold with copper, he weighted the plates as if they were pure gold.
Alma
Alma said:I think it's interesting that a Rabbi can tell you exactly how this was used when no one else is quite that confident.
Alma
Hi there!Alma said:You're mistakenly referring to the accounts of Joseph Smith using a chocolate colored stone that he allegedly placed in the bottom of his hat. The urim and thummim was something else, which he didn't use in the presence of others. I think it's interesting that a Rabbi can tell you exactly how this was used when no one else is quite that confident.
Alma
Here's a link from Mormon Fortress. I applaud their honesty.Alma said:It isn't a "jail certificate, it a "trial bill" for costs incurred in a trial. It's not as important as most people think it is.
Alma
Hi there!Chaucer said:I checked the Temple Institute website. Apparently they know a bit about how it was used from ancient sources including the midrash, but it doesn't say anything about light being reflected.
http://www.templeinstitute.org/vessels/urim-v-tummim.html
When the High Priest is facing the Ark, then then candlesticks will be casting light on the High Priest.The High Priest stands facing the Ark of the Testimony, and the questioner stands behind him, facing the priests back. The questioner does not speak out loud, neither does he merely think the question in his heart; he poses his query quietly, to himselflike someone who prayers quietly before his Creator. For example, he will ask "Shall I go out to battle, or shall I not go out?"
Hi there!Mother Vashti said:Here's a link from Mormon Fortress. I applaud their honesty.
that certainly does not fit any description of the urim and thummin in historical records. '...the Prophet possessed a Seer Stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as with the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he sometimes used the Seer Stone. Martin said further that the Seer Stone differed in appearance entirely from the Urim and Thummim that was obtained with the plates, which were two clear stones set in two rims, very much resembling spectacles, only they were larger.
Serapha said:Hi there!
From that site...
When the High Priest is facing the Ark, then then candlesticks will be casting light on the High Priest.
~serapha~
Serapha said:Hi there!
Well, certainly the plates could not have been pure gold, for 24K gold is too soft to be used to make impressions, the simple weight of the pages would mar the imprinted words on other pages of the book rendering the words impossible to read.
But, then, the bom would not be correct in stating....
And for a testimony that the things that they had said are true they have brought twenty-four plates which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold.
Hi there!Chaucer said:As I said, the Temple Institute says nothing about the device reflecting light to work.
http://www3.tky.3web.ne.jp/~jafarr/THE%20BREASTPLATE%20OF%20THE%20HIGH%20PRIEST.html
As God breathed through the Ark, the Veil would move, permitting a breeze to flicker the flames in the Lampstand to momentarily alter the angle of direction of the light onto the Urim and Thummin, and thence to the Breastplate. Thus God was able to communicate directly, but not audibly, to the high priest and answer the enquiry.
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