Homosexuality

Phinehas2 said:

Dear Ohioprof,
God created the heaven and the earth and the snake, of course He can make a snake talk.. your god is really unimpressive. What can your god do?

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There is only one God, Phinny. I worship the same God you do. But God does not, and never has, suddenly made snakes talk.

Life itself is a miracle. We don't have to invent supposed miracles like snakes talking to appreciate the wonder God has created.

There is a subtle, yet significant, difference.

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And, what, praytell, would that be, if your supposedly open mind leads you to unbelief? An open mind is only useful if it leads you to believing the truth, not lies.

But God does not, and never has, suddenly made snakes talk.

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Num 22:26 And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
Num 22:27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.
Num 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
Num 22:29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
Num 22:30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.


He's made snakes AND mules talk, because nothing is impossible for God. Do you suppose an infinitely powerful creator that made a universe with over 8 billion galaxies has a problem giving speech to an animal?

A man was once even turned into a cow for a short time (below), (or at least he thought he was.)

Daniel 4:30-37
(30) The king spoke, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honor of my majesty?
(31) While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
(32) And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
(33) The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
(34) And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honored him that liveth forever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
(35) And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
(36) At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honor and brightness returned unto me; and my counselors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
(37) Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Dear Ohioprof,
My God has made a snake talk, you are at liberty to disbelieve what my God can do, but if your god cant then I am unimpressed whether you report my post or not.
Now if My God has made a snake talk and yours hasnt there are two different gods here, or one of our God's isnt the true one and you cannot therefore worship the God is do. Its not possible!

walloffire said:

And, what, praytell, would that be, if your supposedly open mind leads you to unbelief? An open mind is only useful if it leads you to believing the truth, not lies.

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thats utterly correct.

I suggest you invest in one.

Phinehas2 said:

Dear Ohioprof,
My God has made a snake talk, you are at liberty to disbelieve what my God can do, but if your god cant then I am unimpressed whether you report my post or not.
Now if My God has made a snake talk and yours hasnt there are two different gods here, or one of our God's isnt the true one and you cannot therefore worship the God is do. Its not possible!

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and I reported your post.

I wonder if the lesson about judging others without adequate evidence will be lost on you?

walloffire said:

And, what, praytell, would that be, if your supposedly open mind leads you to unbelief? An open mind is only useful if it leads you to believing the truth, not lies.

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Such as the lie for instance that the Bible has to be taken literally in order to be true...

Or the lie that the Bible says that all homosexual activity is sinful...

Or the lie that the Bible calls itself the Word of God...

Or the lie that the world is how a bunch of literalist fundamentalists make of it not how it actually is...

Dear EnemyPartyII

I wonder if the lesson about judging others without adequate evidence will be lost on you?

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or you? Please re address my post, my God has made a snake talk. If Ohioprof is saying her god is my God then I am pointing out it cant be as my God has made a snake talk… and the scriptural evidence has been given

Dear artybloke,

Such as the lie for instance that the Bible has to be taken literally in order to be true...

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That doesnt make sense, if the Bible is taken illiterally it could lead to any meaning and it would make knowing whether it is true alomost impossible.

Or the lie that the Bible says that all homosexual activity is sinful...

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No thats a truth it does say that, thats a proven fact.it has been demonstrated.

Or the lie that the Bible calls itself the Word of God...

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Or the lie that the world is how a bunch of literalist fundamentalists make of it not how it actually is...

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They are truths not lies.

That doesnt make sense, if the Bible is taken illiterally it could lead to any meaning and it would make knowing whether it is true alomost impossible.

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Illiterally? Are you inventing words now?

Actually, knowing the exact meaning of any text is impossible. Even the writer doesn't always know every implication of what they're saying. But when a literal meaning means that you have to pretend that the world is different from it really is, then it is nothing but Gnosticism to interpret the Bible literally.

No thats a truth it does say that, thats a proven fact.it has been demonstrated.

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All you've demonstrated is your blindness to context and the boundless depths of your own prejudice.

They are truths not lies.

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Show me where the Bible gives itself a label that it only ever applies to Christ. Trying to make the world fit the fundamentalist interpretation (ie false interpretation: 99% of all fundamentalist theology is false) is a modern form of Gnosticism.

Dear artybloke,

Actually, knowing the exact meaning of any text is impossible. Even the writer doesn't always know every implication of what they're saying.

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what do you mean, do you know what you are writing and the meaning you are conveying?
No the text has to read literally before it can be translated or interpreted.
Many of the objections here like yours are based on disputing the passage literal translations and context. What is revealing is passage with the same words are only disputed when they denounce same-sex sex.

No thats a truth it does say that, thats a proven fact.it has been demonstrated.

All you've demonstrated is your blindness to context and the boundless depths of your own prejudice.

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No I have proved I believe the Bible passages I cited and you have proved you don’t. prejudice is just your issue with it, I prefer to be prejudice against sinful acts even if you are prejudiced against those who are prejudiced against sinful acts. I am prejudiced against paedophilia and adultery but not paedophiles or adulterers, I have committed adultery before I was a Christian.

Show me where the Bible gives itself a label that it only ever applies to Christ.

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John 5:39 actually but try giving me some scriptures where Jesus Christ countenances same-sex sex, and I suggest you cease asking others to give scriptures to satisfy you all the time when you present few yourself and disbelieve the ones we do present.

from artibloke:
99% of all fundamentalist theology is false

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It takes more faith to believe that only 1 out of 100 doctrinal teachings of a "fundy" is true than it does to believe that God even exists. C'mon. Anyone will get at least 2 right.

Obviously your statement was sarcasm. But why make it? Is it any better than saying, "You're not a Christian?"

Illiterally? Are you inventing words now?

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all words are invented.

truthiness was recently coined and officially declared "a word". language evolves and improves.

walloffire said:

all words are invented.

truthiness was recently coined and officially declared "a word". language evolves and improves.

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although "illiterally" implies something more to do with a lack of reading ability, rather than non-literality

John 5:39 actually

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You mean this, Phinehas?

39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

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I don't see in that verse the word Logos even being mentioned. It says, in fact, that there are those (Pharisees) who believe that the scriptures will lead to eternal life (just like fundamentalists do) but that in fact they don't; what they do is point to the Word, Jesus Christ himself. It does not say anything about the Bible being inerrant, to be interpreted literally or anything that might give comfort to a fundamentalist. In fact, it's advocating a highly symbolic reading of the OT; if it were to be taken literally, it wouldn't point to Jesus. Only by taking verses symbolically could the OT be said to point to Jesus.

Try again.

what do you mean, do you know what you are writing and the meaning you are conveying?

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If I'm writing a set of instructions to operate the washing machine, I'm writing literally. If I'm writing a poem, I'm writing poetically. If I'm writing a story, I'm writing fictionally. If I'm writing a scientific treatise, I use scientific method. Etc etc...

Before deciding what a text means, or whether to take it literally or symbolically, or a combination of both, you have to decide what kind of literature you're reading. None of the Bible is science, the history is all mixed up with legend, it contains a wide variety of different literary forms.

Poetry and story and wisdom literature and parable are all forms in which meaning is a lot more fluid than in other forms of literature. There are limits to meaning but it's more open that a set of instructions. The Bible is mainly poetry & story.

Dear artybloke,

I don't see in that verse the word Logos even being mentioned.

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ah but you said for you ‘Actually, knowing the exact meaning of any text is impossible’ so how are you supposed to know whether the word is mentioned or not?
Actually you have no idea what Jesus said, all we have is the testimony not only of what Jesus is recorded as saying but also of what He taught. So Jesus has taught that all scripture is God breathed, and useful for teaching correcting and rebuking. So I am rebuking your comments now. Incidentally, Jesus is actually recorded as saying he fulfils the law and prophets, He changes none of it, and that the scriptures testify about Him. Furthermore nowhere does Jesus say the scriptures are not true but everywhere He refers to them He endorses them even if He corrects the understandings. What possible basis have you got to suppose the scripture is not all true? I have not seen such unbelief even among self confessed non-believers.
No you are still mixing up the literal meaning with what the text literally says, we are not claiming the text always literally means what it says. You are arguing against a concept we don’t hold.

Actually you have no idea what Jesus said, all we have is the testimony not only of what Jesus is recorded as saying but also of what He taught.

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I never took you for a member of the Jesus Seminar.

So Jesus has taught that all scripture is God breathed

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And here's me thinking it was the anonymous author of 2 Timothy, when all along it was Jesus being a ventriloquist.

You are arguing against a concept we don’t hold.

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Of course you don't. Except of course when it suits you, so you can continue with your sinful prejudices.

Dear artybloke,

I never took you for a member of the Jesus Seminar.

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I am not but I think my statement is correct, were you there 2000+ years ago?

And here's me thinking it was the anonymous author of 2 Timothy, when all along it was Jesus being a ventriloquist.

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No the authors of the NT testify to what Jesus taught them, see Galatians 1 for Paul.

Of course you don't. Except of course when it suits you, so you can continue with your sinful prejudices.

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I am not really bothered about your personal remarks and disaffection, the point I was making was that we interpret the literal text, we don’t necessarily interpret the text literally.

Phinehas2 said:

I am not really bothered about your personal remarks and disaffection, the point I was making was that we interpret the literal text, we don’t necessarily interpret the text literally.

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You could possibly be fighting a tough battle here. As I was basically told yesterday, if you don't believe that Jesus will get out all the carpentry tools and rebuild the temple in 3 days after it is destroyed then u are not a biblical literalist. Lol to that by the way, as not only are the liberal definitions being molded around to suit everyone's needs, but apparently so are the conservative's.

No the authors of the NT testify to what Jesus taught them, see Galatians 1 for Paul.

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So because the anonymous author decided to use some obscure Greek word nobody is exactly sure what it means (theopneustos: a neologism is scripture) we have to take your word for it that it means some kind of verbal inspiration? Why? what kind of authority are you?

we interpret the literal text, we don’t necessarily interpret the text literally.

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Everybody interprets the literal text; only some of us do it without our homophobic spectacles on.