Homosexual Churches

kern · Jan 30, 2003

Yes. Why wouldn't it be, regardless of whether or not you consider "being homosexual" a sin? Are there any other sins that disqualify you from being a Christian?

Even if they believe it is not a sin and they are wrong, that's merely an additional sin -- doesn't mean they aren't a Christian. Unless you are saying that anyone who sins and believes they are not sinning is out.

-Chris

seebs · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by Br. Max
Can a person be a believing confessing Christian and a homosexual? I think that this is the real question here.

I dunno. Can someone be a believing confessing Christian and a slaver? I think history says "fortunately, yes".

Some might think it's unfortunate, but I don't. Did slavers do something horrible? You betcha. So, isn't it *more* important, if that's even possible, that they are able to receive forgiveness?

A church that couldn't accept them couldn't accept most of us, if there were any justice. Me, I'm glad God has such insanely low standards.

Ryder · Jan 30, 2003

Bearing in mind that it is still unlikely that God will not confront that sin in their lives. A homosexual church that continues to grow and whose members consistently show no signs of turning from homosexual activity is (at the least) sending some conflicting messages out about 'fruit of the spirit' growing/not growing. Can a slave driver be saved, yes! If he/she is saved it is not likely they will continue to beat bloody their slaves 'till the grave however. I'm not the judge (duh) ,maybe they'd still be saved! But it is hardly encouraging behaviour from an outside perspective when it persists like that.

seebs · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by Ryder Veldhuis
Bearing in mind that it is still unlikely that God will not confront that sin in their lives. A homosexual church that continues to grow and whose members consistently show no signs of turning from homosexual activity is (at the least) sending some conflicting messages out about 'fruit of the spirit' growing/not growing. Can a slave driver be saved, yes! If he/she is saved it is not likely they will continue to beat bloody their slaves 'till the grave however. I'm not the judge (duh) ,maybe they'd still be saved! But it is hardly encouraging behaviour from an outside perspective when it persists like that.

Well, here's the thing. Let's imagine a behavior, and I won't name what the behavior is. And let's say that there's a church that teaches that people who do this behavior can still be Christians, and not be sinning. Now, let's say we watch the congregation for a while. A couple of them give up drinking. One becomes active in charity work. A few of them start being kinder to their coworkers. Over time, in fact, we see unambiguous evidence that the Holy Spirit is active in reclaiming these souls... But they still engage in the behavior, and none of them seem to be convicted against it.

Is the behavior actually sinful? I don't know. Four examples of behaviors of which you could say the above are:
1. Homosexual sex.
2. Use of birth control.
3. Ownership of slaves.
4. Monogamous, heterosexual, sex with your spouse.

So, I don't think we can say whether or not it's sinful... only that it's apparently within God's capacity to forgive.

I personally have come to believe that most modern Christian teachings about homosexuality are the result of people misinterpreting Scripture through ignorance around a thousand years ago, and that the churches which have dropped that particular plank from their platform are closer to God's will on the subject. I believe this, partially, simply because gay Christians exist, and exhibit the fruits of the spirit so manifestly that I cannot honestly deny them. Given that, I can only conclude that, if God wanted to change these people, He would.

kern · Jan 30, 2003

I agree that *if* homosexuality is a sin, then a "homosexual church" is not something God would want. However, if doing something God didn't want you to meant you were not a Christian, then we'd all be in trouble.

-Chris

Ryder · Jan 30, 2003

I personally think *it* IS a sin, but yeah, I don't think it's beyond Gods ability to forgive. I suppose I actually have more to argue against a pastor that says it isn't a sin than the people who do it. And yeah, there could be ALOT of evidence of the HS in other areas of their lives. I just have a beef with pastors that teach it isn't a sin, because it is. (and these days it's becoming politically incorrect kryptonite to call gay a sin).

fragmentsofdreams · Jan 30, 2003

Not all preachers who believe that homosexuality is not a sin are acting out of political correctness. Many believe that homosexuality as we are concerned about today is not a sin (using the Bible to support their conclusion).

PastorFreud · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
Not all preachers who believe that homosexuality is not a sin are acting out of political correctness. Many believe that homosexuality as we are concerned about today is not a sin (using the Bible to support their conclusion).

Yep!  My point exactly.  I would understand the outrage if the Church decided to let the outside world make the definitions.  But I come by my opinion by studying the text, accepting it as authoritative, and seeking to love God with my whole mind.

kern · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by Ryder Veldhuis
I just have a beef with pastors that teach it isn't a sin, because it is. (and these days it's becoming politically incorrect kryptonite to call gay a sin).

As the other people said, what do you say about people who sincerely believe that homosexuality is not a sin, and they believe that the Bible backs them up on it? Obviously you think they are wrong, but are they so wrong that they are no longer Christian?

-Chris

Homie · Jan 31, 2003

People are seriously saying that homoxeuality is not a sin and they say they can back this up with the Bible!!! I'd like to see this interpretation, flawed I'm sure but it would be interesting to see how they figure homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible.

kern · Jan 31, 2003

Feel free to browse the several threads that are about that, I don't feel like having the long discussion again. Just do a search for "homosexuality bible" and you should find several very long threads about it.

I think that seebs can also give you some links to pages that explain the various verses.

I might be willing to have this discussion through e-mail, but never on these boards again; I'm tired of being accused of intentionally twisting scripture, posting just to cause strife and division, and not being a Christian.

-Chris

Ryder · Jan 31, 2003

I can't say they aren't Christian anymore. The last time I checked I'm not the Eternal Judge who knoweth the hearts of men. All I'm saying is that I believe it's a pretty bad sin and ergo I don't think it reflects well on a Christian to be a homosexual (whether they think it's wrong or not). But yeah Kern, you're right, I can't say that's the definning sin that tells me they are unsaved or anything.       And how they think the Bible backs them up, like Homie said, is beyond me.

kern · Jan 31, 2003

The basic idea is that the verses that supposedly condemn homosexuality are condemning certain *types* of homosexual activity rather than a consensual relationship between homosexuals. The types of activity include temple prostitution, pagan ritual sex, sex with young boys (common in ancient Greece), and homosexual rape.

-Chris

Ryder · Jan 31, 2003

I STRONGLY dissagree, but again, I'm not trying to imply that I think anyone goes to hell for not taking every view precisely. I keep smoking, and I'm not sure whether it's a sin or not. Someone probably thinks that's really bad! At the same time though, I gotta say I've got this 'pit' feeling that Homosexuality is in some other ballpark of bad.... anyhow, lunch time.

dignitized · Jan 31, 2003

IS a church which allows homosexuality any worse than a Church which allows for abortion? Or divorce for any reason? or for racism? Or a church which teaches that God is vengeful and spiteful? Or even a church which teaches that they alone have the true revelation of God?

I think this issue gets the forefront because it offends the sensibilities of some people in the same way drinking alcohol offended the sensibilities of the puritans. Yes the Bible says that homosexual sex is wrong. The bible also says that murder is wrong and we have people in churches who say they are Christians who see no problem with abortion. There are churches which teach racism is biblical - churches which teach and allow their members to divorce at whim. The answer is not to shout condemnation at these people, but to correct them in love and charity with GENTLENESS lest we fall into the same trap. (10 points to any who know the scripture verse that is from )

God bless

his-girl · Jan 31, 2003

Originally posted by Br. Max
IS a church which allows homosexuality any worse than a Church which allows for abortion? Or divorce for any reason? or for racism? Or a church which teaches that God is vengeful and spiteful? Or even a church which teaches that they alone have the true revelation of God?

I think this issue gets the forefront because it offends the sensibilities of some people in the same way drinking alcohol offended the sensibilities of the puritans. Yes the Bible says that homosexual sex is wrong. The bible also says that murder is wrong and we have people in churches who say they are Christians who see no problem with abortion. There are churches which teach racism is biblical - churches which teach and allow their members to divorce at whim. The answer is not to shout condemnation at these people, but to correct them in love and charity with GENTLENESS lest we fall into the same trap. (10 points to any who know the scripture verse that is from )

God bless

Br. Max,

I have to agree with you.

I know.....hang onto your monitor so you don't fall out of your chair.

kern · Jan 31, 2003

And that's what I mainly have a problem with -- not so much that people consider homosexuality a sin, but that they seem to consider it a much worse sin than others.

I have seen people say that homosexuality is the most disgusting sin to God, or that homosexuals should not be allowed in churches, etc. It just seems that people are often much less forgiving and tolerant of homosexuality than other sins.

-Chris

Blade · Jan 31, 2003

Originally posted by Br. Max
IS a church which allows homosexuality any worse than a Church which allows for abortion? Or divorce for any reason? or for racism? Or a church which teaches that God is vengeful and spiteful? Or even a church which teaches that they alone have the true revelation of God?

I think this issue gets the forefront because it offends the sensibilities of some people in the same way drinking alcohol offended the sensibilities of the puritans. Yes the Bible says that homosexual sex is wrong. The bible also says that murder is wrong and we have people in churches who say they are Christians who see no problem with abortion. There are churches which teach racism is biblical - churches which teach and allow their members to divorce at whim. The answer is not to shout condemnation at these people, but to correct them in love and charity with GENTLENESS lest we fall into the same trap. (10 points to any who know the scripture verse that is from )

God bless

I agree with ya to a point. Just because I THINK homosexuality is a sin, or abortion is a sin or not. Does that mean I have sinned? Sin will not enter heaven. We cannot serve 2 masters. Its impossible according to Gods word. We cannot live in sin and say we are a christian. Now to live in sin is knowing what your doing is a sin and saying I don't want to stop it yet. Thats a warm Christian if you want to be called a Christian. God will spit us right out of his mouth. Now I think sin is sin no matter how big or small. And if I had a church and a homosexaul wanted to join I would say sure. But I would tell them if the do not change, repent you will not be saved. We can not give in to sin. We cannot think that a God who hates, wont even look at it is gona say, dont worry about it your still saved. If you love me you will keep ALL my comandments. If we sin then we confess it, repent, turn away and do our best not to repeat it. Now yes we all sin but we all know there's a diff between, "oh God help me stop and change this I am so sorry" as to "I don't care I don't believe it's a sin so I don't have to change"

I do agree that it is so sad that believers tend to put it on the "top ten list".  Just look at these forums, people keep bringing it up.

dignitized · Jan 31, 2003

blade: you are quite correct - sin cannot enter heaven. SO what happens to a believer who dies with unrepentant sin?

Will not be saved? Are you saying that born again and saved are not the same thing? are you sure you are a protestant?

Homie · Feb 1, 2003

Br.Max
The bible also says that murder is wrong and we have people in churches who say they are Christians who see no problem with abortion

And they are wrong as well! I know christians who do not think abortion or gay sex is sin, they are called (by Americans) liberals. A typical trait of christian liberals is that being politically correct and "getting with the times" is more importent than the Bible. Although they may not have realized it, God has 2nd place to popular opinion.

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