Holiness VS Worldliness

SaintJoeNow · Mar 18, 2015

twin1954 said:
First of all my response was to PrincetonGuy not you. He apparently advocates a perfectionism. Perfectionism is heretical and goes against both the Scriptures and experience.

If you want to know how you can be holy it is simple: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Rest in Him and His holiness. My holiness isn't worth mentioning but His is all that God requires of me and my only holiness. My whole hope is in Him.

(Isa 26:12) LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.

(Jer 23:5) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

(Jer 23:6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

(Jer 33:16) In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

That old man the flesh is not destroyed while we are in this body of death and sin taints all that we do in it. Rom. 7:15-25, Gal. 5:17 This stinking corpse we live in now does not need to be taken to the hospital of religion to be cured it must be taken to the cross to be crucified.

(Gal 2:20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

(Gal 2:21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

To seek to be or think that you are holy by anything you do is to frustrate the grace of God and deny the death of Christ.

We cannot nor do we become progressively more holy. How can purity and perfection become more pure and perfect?

Now lets not confuse holiness and growth in grace and knowledge. We do grow and daily lean more on Him who is all in all. Sin does not have dominion over us, that is it no longer rules us and drives our passions. Rom. 6:14 But that is not holiness or sanctification.

You seem to want some complicated formula by which we can consecrate ourselves and separate ourselves from the world. That is what religion does. It gives you a system, a formula or a principle by which you can accomplish that which is already done for you and in you by Christ through faith.

By all means live as holy and righteously as it is possible in you but do nat claim that it is holiness or righteousness. That holiness without which no man shall see the Lord is Christ in you the hope of glory, Col. 1: 27

Oh, thought you were replying to me, but now I know you are so I can reply more accurately. I am not looking for a complicated formula by which we can consecrate ourselves, You seem to have a pretty good grip in the scriptures, and obviously applied some discipline to get it. Jesus told his disciples to make disciples, and that means discipline. I'm glad you are a disciple. You show an obvious actively moving mind which seeks to know God better and be closer to Him which I would call "the pursuit of holiness". Yes there is a rest for the children of God, but there is still a labor to enter into that rest because we will never fully know it while in these bodies of death over which sin holds dominion.

Again, I am not looking for a complicated formula, but it is obvious the Lord wants us to be disciplined to follow Him because it is easy to relax and take His salvation for granted. Daniel was old testament of course, but was he not an excellent example of a man committed to the pursuit of holiness as he prayed three times a day to the God of heaven and continued to do so even when the king was tricked into passing a law against it so Daniels enemies could have an excuse to get Daniel killed?

I'm not trying to promote a legalistic Pharasitic approach to being a good Christian. I'm talking about willful obedience even when it does not seem easy or rewarding in the short term view. Referring back to the OP again, Moses obeyed God when God called him up into the mountain and forbid the people from following him. The people were obedient to stay behind, but they rested knowing God had delivered them from the bondage of Egypt. They said something like "So much for holy Moses, looks like he's not coming back, let's make a golden calf for our new god and have a party for it?". They fell into complete disobedience. Holiness is always disciplined in obedience. The people were told to wait for Moses, but they were not disciplined to do it.

Like many, you have focused on holiness and done a pretty good job of presenting doctrine regarding the Lord's working of making us holy for Himself.
We are incapable of making ourselves holy, but it takes discipline and effort to put together a line upon line and precept upon precept dissertation as you have done for the Lord. That's holiness, serving the Lord. He owns us, He bought us with His blood for His own purpose, to glorify His own name, and He will do it. The problem is, the world is in our hearts and we have a tendency to be like the Jews who got tired of waiting for Moses to come down from the mountain. We tend to get tired of waiting for the Lord to complete His work of making us to be like Him, with Him, by Him and for Him forever and ever when we are like Him when we see Him face to face and are forever changed completely to be forever perfect with Him. We get tired of waiting, so our thoughts and desires tend to wander away from God, and in our pride we make excuses. The next thing you know, when a bunch of us get together (the ones who really went off the deep end from impatience, not you and I of course..."us" referring to all believers and the "bunch" here being the ones who are saved but sliding downstream with the world)

Now a final thing, let me be clear...I am not much of an example of holiness. I get in a bad way when things don't go the way I want, and I get that way far too often. And that's not the worst of me, but it's an honest jab in taking sides with God against my own sin. My desire is for more holiness, because I know God told me to be holy because He is holy, and the more holy I become, the more I will glow like Moses and the more my enemies will be afraid to look at me.

SaintJoeNow · Mar 18, 2015

twin1954 said:
I realized that I had not dealt with worldliness. Worldliness is to be caught up in the things of the world: the pleasures of sin for a season, the need to fulfill the lust of the eye and the pride of life, the desire to satisfy ones own gratification in whatever our sin tempts us to. Worldliness is to be so caught up in religion that we become self-righteous and cease to know that we are sinners. Worldliness, in a nut shell, is to be self focused.

Good! "the desire to satisfy one's own gratification"....Avid was talking about this without being quite so brief. I think of my pride as being self-gratifying, self-satisfying, self-glorifying, self-justifying, self-comforting. It's that old devilish sin nature in all of us which is against God because we want to think that we have the right to exist outside of Hell and do not need God's mercy. It's hard to admit we are rotten to the core and need to be saved from what we are: Sinners being pulled down in death to Hell by our sin if God does not save us from it.

Worldliness in a nutshell being self-focused is true I guess, but the scope of being self-focused is broad.. Our sin nature is a lying nature like the father of lies, the devil, who turned us into sinners like Himself. We tend to lie to ourselves about the extent of our self-focus, we tend to make excuses for ourselves and cover ourselves just like Adam and Eve did after they sinned and turned into disciples of the devil....they argued with God, made excuses, lied, sewed fig leaves to hide and cover themselves, tried to save themselves from God by their own works and efforts....sin came naturally for them once they became sinners; they were by nature disciples of the devil and by obedience to God they accepted His covering of skins and left the garden when He sent them out. Under His mercy, under those skins, they left the garden in obedience to God while their nature was now sinful and their desires were devilish.

God wants us to listen to Him, obey Him, and be disciplined to follow Him and reject our ungodly desires and take sides with God against our sin so we can walk in agreement with God. The more we can do these things, the more we talk with Him openly and honestly and allow Him to correct us, the more holiness we will have in our life.

Holiness is a lifetime discipline, and worldliness is a life of sliding through the easy way, making excuses and sewing fig leaves together trying to look good while doing it, no?

SaintJoeNow · Mar 18, 2015

twin1954 said:
While most think that the word means purity it is not the primary meaning. The word means separate. It certainly applies to God as separate from us as far as the imagination can go and beyond. But when it comes to created things it means separated unto God for His use and consecrated unto Him. Holy in that sense means that we are His and are for His use.

Certainly the idea of purity does enter into that definition but again it isn't the primary meaning. To be holy unto the Lord is to be separated unto Him for his use and declared holy by God.

But we are none holy in ourselves. All our holiness is of the Lord. My holiness is that holiness which He has given me in Him.

Now it might be good to think on the fact that there are no degrees to holiness or righteousness. You are either holy and righteous or you are not. The slightest taint of sin destroys all righteousness and holiness. Therefore we must rest in the Lord who is our righteousness and our holiness.

Being united to Christ by faith we are complete, holy, righteous and accepted in the Beloved. We can come boldly to the throne of grace without fear and find grace to help in time of need. We find ourselves to be as He is in this world, 1John 4:17. We find that he who would ascend unto the hill of the the Lord, that is into His high and lofty presence, must have clean hands and a pure heart and never to have lifted up his soul unto vanity or sworn deceitfully. Psa. 24:1-4

Our only refuge, hope and acceptance is that we are united to Christ by faith. And having been united to Him we have all and enough. We have enough for God and enough for us. Christ Jesus the Lord is all in all to the believing sinner. Col. 3:11

It is true that we are either unholy or holy, in sin or in the Spirit, but to say there are no degrees of holiness is to imply there is no need of discipline. It is our nature to be unholy, and it is not natural for us to keep our thoughts, imaginations, desires, and actions clean, separated from the mud of sin.

Maybe you have arrived at the point of never slipping into sin other than an occasional flash of anger or something like that so you don't need to discipline yourself to reach a more realistic experience of holiness. Maybe you are shining like Moses now and it's only my unholiness that keeps me from realizing it.

What I'm getting at here is our personal experience of holiness which is experienced in degrees, and fades away quickly when we slip back from God's commands to "pray without ceasing", "rejoice evermore" "give thanks" in and for all things. God is against any of the briefest moments of unholiness in anything we do, say, think, or imagine and the incline of our heart is deceitful so we don't see, and perhaps don't even want to see, the unholiness of our own ways. We like to think we have arrived rather than to face the fact that there is still a war going on between our sin nature and the new nature born of God's Spirit. I believe Moses forgot about his sin nature (briefly) and glowed with the holiness of God because he was close to God in obedience to God. He wasn't resting with God, he was in fear of God doing what God told him to do, listening to what God had to say in fear of God, and then returned down the mountain in obedience to God. There is much more to holiness than simply resting in the fact that God owns us and separates us from Hell for Himself.

PrincetonGuy · Mar 18, 2015

twin1954 said:
First of all my response was to PrincetonGuy not you. He apparently advocates a perfectionism. Perfectionism is heretical and goes against both the Scriptures and experience.

Matt. 5:48. Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I am sorry. I did not realize that Jesus is a heretic.

twin1954 said:
If you want to know how you can be holy it is simple: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Rest in Him and His holiness. My holiness isn't worth mentioning but His is all that God requires of me and my only holiness. My whole hope is in Him.

Does the Bible tell us to simply rest in Jesus, or does it tell us to discipline ourselves?

1 Cor. 9:25. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self- control in all things. They then [do it[/] to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

2 Tim. 4:7. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
8. in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Peter knew very well that Christians are not holy unless they are living a holy lifestyle. Therefore, he gave the following instructions to Christians,

1 Peter 1:14. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15. but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16. because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

twin1954 said:

That old man the flesh is not destroyed while we are in this body of death and sin taints all that we do in it. Rom. 7:15-25, Gal. 5:17 This stinking corpse we live in now does not need to be taken to the hospital of religion to be cured it must be taken to the cross to be crucified.

Click to expand...

Should we believe people who are still engulfed in sin, or should we believe the Apostle Paul,

Romans 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

SaintJoeNow · Mar 18, 2015

NASB vs KJV

2 Pet 1:21.............. NASB......men.................................KJV .... holy men
Matt 25:31...............NASB..... holy angels........................KJV..... holy angels
1 Thess 5:27...........NASB......brethren............................KJV......holy brethren
Rev. 22:6.................NASB.....prophets............................KJV......holy prophets
Rev 18:20...............NASB ....apostles and prophets...........KJV......holy apostles and prophets

John 7?39...............NASB....Spirit...................................KJV Holy Ghost
1 Cor 2:13..............NASB....Spirit....................................KJV Holy Ghost
Matt 12:31.............NASB......Spirit..................................KJV Holy Ghost
Acts 6:3.................NASB......Spirit..................................KJV Holy Ghost
Acts 8:18.................NASB.....Spirit..................................KJV ....Holy Ghost

How can you say the NASB is the "holy" Bible when it deletes "holy" so many times?

SaintJoeNow · Mar 18, 2015

The NASB has been revised six times, has 24,338 changes and 6'966 new omissions between it's 1994 and 1995 printings alone.

Dr. S. Franklin who wrote the preface in the NASB said this when faced with the above facts regarding the NASB renounced his extensive involvement with the NASB in fear of God, renounced the entire NASB, and gave full support to the KJV as being entirely correct.

But using the Holy Bible instead of unholy fake imposter Bibles is really a side issue in this thread. What I'm trying to get at here is the meaning of loving the world or the things that are in the world and how such affections are contrary to holiness. I think we have had plenty explanations to define holiness, but little talk of how that plays out in real life like it did in the OP reference which contrasted the holiness of Moses with the lack of holiness of the Jews who were called out of Egypt for God.

SaintJoeNow · Mar 18, 2015

Why is it so hard to get people to talk about loving the world or the things that are in the world, but easy to get people displaying their vast knowledge about "holiness"?

twin1954 · Mar 18, 2015

SaintJoeNow said:
Why is it so hard to get people to talk about loving the world or the things that are in the world, but easy to get people displaying their vast knowledge about "holiness"?

Perhaps it is because man is self-righteous by nature. Man thinks that sin is what you do not what your are by nature. It is unpleasant to think of much less discuss.

The fact is that the old man, our natural being, is not only enamored with the world and the things in the world but delights in seeking self gratification through the world and its baubles. Whatever the world offers and we find pleasurable is a constant temptation to us.

But believers are no longer just creatures that seek pleasure and happiness in the world and things of the world. We have been born of God and are new creations which possesses a holy nature and hates sin.

It is a daily battle we fight within ourselves the flesh against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.

I wouldn't just be embarrassed but mortified if anyone could know the thoughts that go through my mind much less the things that I sometimes do.

But that isn't loving the world and the things in the world but the sin that is in me still. To love the world and the things in the world is to live for the gratification of self by those things. It is what the unregenerate does.

There is no such thing as a "carnal Christian". Believers are the sheep who belong to the Shepherd and they have the nature of sheep. They follow Him but sometimes stray.

Avid · Mar 18, 2015

These things were taught and preached for centuries, and we see very little of it these days. In the time I was under conviction of these matters (so many years ago) it was having a sight of the wickedness of the world around me that got my attention.

I had maintained the opinion that I got in Church that everything was going to be fine. These things awakened my soul, and the fear of "the world to come" got hold of me. This is intended to challenge where our affections are set, and upon what they have laid hold. Think about what you really like. What do you love so much you cannot go without it.

Cravings, Lusts and especially Addictions are what I am talking about. We know that we need Food, Water, Shelter, Clothing, etc., but most people are not satisfied with these things. What is it we love the most?

Here are many good quotes an passages of scripture for my point.

Never rest in convictions till they end in conversion. This is that wherein most men miscarry; they rest in their convictions, and take them for conversion, as if sin seen were therefore forgiven, as if a sight of the want of grace were the truth of the work of grace.
Matthew Mead (1629-1699)

Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religions destroy spirituality.
Dr. Michael Ellner

America is becoming a land of men and women who God has given up. They are listening to everything except the voice of God.
Rolfe Barnard (1904-1969)

Do we crave things of the world? I do not know your heart, but God does. Get the LORD to show you in your heart.

Romans 6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We say we do not practice sin, but how many times does a certain behavior need to be repeated before it is PRACTICING?

Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

We are told that we are going to sin as long as we are in this body of flesh. Where is that written in the scriptures? What about these words of the Apostle that tells us otherwise?

Maybe the term FLESH in these verses refers to a different thing. Maybe there is a reference to the EGO, and the Fallen Human Nature that is SARX in the Greek, that does not speak specifically of the meat and bones, blood and sinew that comprise our mortal bodies. Maybe we need to do as the scripture says, and deal with that thing in us that God hates, that Adam the First was reduced to when he fell.

Romans 8
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God has predestined those He will save to be conformed to the image of His dear Son. We can count on this being something done here, while we walk in shoe-leather. It must be done so we can be a beacon for Him in this dark and wicked world.

Galatians 5
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Colossians 3
5 ¶ Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

If the EGO, the Carnal Nature, Fallen Human Nature, the Old Man or the FLESH, get in the way, they need to be mortified, and crucified.

One of the signs of a flesh-pleaser or sensualist is when he will believe or like no doctrine but libertinism, and hateth mortification as too strict preciseness.
Richard Baxter (1615-1691)

All your powers and faculties are so corrupt in your natural state that, except you be purged from dead works, you cannot serve the living God.
Joseph Alleine (1634-1668)

If we are obstinate against the working of God in our hearts, we are truly seeking our own satisfaction, and not that of God. We cannot do as some, and say that God understands why I need to indulge. How presumptuous can we get? How can we think that God does not know our motive?

Numbers 15
30 ¶ But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Deuteronomy 17
12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.

Hosea 4
17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.

We cannot presume upon the grace of God, and do despite to His grace and get away with it. We may walk this world and be happy enough, but we all must face God in the eend. Will it be in the condemnation of our souls?

Hold as hard as you can, you shall be forced to let go your hold of the world at length.
Thomas Boston (1676-1732)

Whatever makes Christ's Gospel palatable to the carnal nature does this by mixtures that are adulterations.
Arthur T. Pierson (1837-1911)

We know God needs to be the one who does the work. I am not talking about earning a thing, but if God has worked, it will show in our behavior.

A sinner needs more than to hear the Gospel. A sinner needs to know more than a little truth. A sinner needs to be operated on, and overcome so that his will is energized and his disposition is changed in order that he can do what God requires of him. If it were true that just hearing the Gospel will get you saved, then everybody in this country would have been saved.
Rolfe Barnard (1904-1969)

He is enlightened in the knowledge of SIN. He has different thoughts of it than he used to have. Formerly his sight could not pierce through the cover Satan laid over it: but now the Spirit of God removes it, wipes off the paint and varnish: and so he sees it in its natural colors, as the worst of evils, exceedingly sinful, (Romans 7:13.) O, what deformed monsters - do formerly beloved lusts appear!
Thomas Boston (1676-1732)

I am not about to say one fellow is good and right, but that other fellow is bad. I merely wish to show what great men of God have said, and point to the logic of believing the scriptures, including the ones posted here. We may go to Church, and not hear these. I did for the first significant portion of my life! Was told by people in Church that I should not worry. God will see I am not a bad guy.

When God convicted my soul, I certainly knew that was not so true!

PrincetonGuy · Mar 19, 2015

Avid said:
These things were taught and preached for centuries, and we see very little of it these days. In the time I was under conviction of these matters (so many years ago) it was having a sight of the wickedness of the world around me that got my attention.

I had maintained the opinion that I got in Church that everything was going to be fine. These things awakened my soul, and the fear of "the world to come" got hold of me. This is intended to challenge where our affections are set, and upon what they have laid hold. Think about what you really like. What do you love so much you cannot go without it.

Cravings, Lusts and especially Addictions are what I am talking about. We know that we need Food, Water, Shelter, Clothing, etc., but most people are not satisfied with these things. What is it we love the most?

Here are many good quotes an passages of scripture for my point.

Never rest in convictions till they end in conversion. This is that wherein most men miscarry; they rest in their convictions, and take them for conversion, as if sin seen were therefore forgiven, as if a sight of the want of grace were the truth of the work of grace.
Matthew Mead (1629-1699)

Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religions destroy spirituality.
Dr. Michael Ellner

America is becoming a land of men and women who God has given up. They are listening to everything except the voice of God.
Rolfe Barnard (1904-1969)

Do we crave things of the world? I do not know your heart, but God does. Get the LORD to show you in your heart.

Romans 6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We say we do not practice sin, but how many times does a certain behavior need to be repeated before it is PRACTICING?

Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

We are told that we are going to sin as long as we are in this body of flesh. Where is that written in the scriptures? What about these words of the Apostle that tells us otherwise?

Maybe the term FLESH in these verses refers to a different thing. Maybe there is a reference to the EGO, and the Fallen Human Nature that is SARX in the Greek, that does not speak specifically of the meat and bones, blood and sinew that comprise our mortal bodies. Maybe we need to do as the scripture says, and deal with that thing in us that God hates, that Adam the First was reduced to when he fell.

Romans 8
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God has predestined those He will save to be conformed to the image of His dear Son. We can count on this being something done here, while we walk in shoe-leather. It must be done so we can be a beacon for Him in this dark and wicked world.

Galatians 5
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Colossians 3
5 ¶ Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

If the EGO, the Carnal Nature, Fallen Human Nature, the Old Man or the FLESH, get in the way, they need to be mortified, and crucified.

One of the signs of a flesh-pleaser or sensualist is when he will believe or like no doctrine but libertinism, and hateth mortification as too strict preciseness.
Richard Baxter (1615-1691)

All your powers and faculties are so corrupt in your natural state that, except you be purged from dead works, you cannot serve the living God.
Joseph Alleine (1634-1668)

If we are obstinate against the working of God in our hearts, we are truly seeking our own satisfaction, and not that of God. We cannot do as some, and say that God understands why I need to indulge. How presumptuous can we get? How can we think that God does not know our motive?

Numbers 15
30 ¶ But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Deuteronomy 17
12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.

Hosea 4
17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.

We cannot presume upon the grace of God, and do despite to His grace and get away with it. We may walk this world and be happy enough, but we all must face God in the eend. Will it be in the condemnation of our souls?

Hold as hard as you can, you shall be forced to let go your hold of the world at length.
Thomas Boston (1676-1732)

Whatever makes Christ's Gospel palatable to the carnal nature does this by mixtures that are adulterations.
Arthur T. Pierson (1837-1911)

We know God needs to be the one who does the work. I am not talking about earning a thing, but if God has worked, it will show in our behavior.

A sinner needs more than to hear the Gospel. A sinner needs to know more than a little truth. A sinner needs to be operated on, and overcome so that his will is energized and his disposition is changed in order that he can do what God requires of him. If it were true that just hearing the Gospel will get you saved, then everybody in this country would have been saved.
Rolfe Barnard (1904-1969)

He is enlightened in the knowledge of SIN. He has different thoughts of it than he used to have. Formerly his sight could not pierce through the cover Satan laid over it: but now the Spirit of God removes it, wipes off the paint and varnish: and so he sees it in its natural colors, as the worst of evils, exceedingly sinful, (Romans 7:13.) O, what deformed monsters - do formerly beloved lusts appear!
Thomas Boston (1676-1732)

I am not about to say one fellow is good and right, but that other fellow is bad. I merely wish to show what great men of God have said, and point to the logic of believing the scriptures, including the ones posted here. We may go to Church, and not hear these. I did for the first significant portion of my life! Was told by people in Church that I should not worry. God will see I am not a bad guy.

When God convicted my soul, I certainly knew that was not so true!

An excellent post! Thank you for sharing it with us.

SaintJoeNow · Mar 19, 2015

twin1954 said:
Perhaps it is because man is self-righteous by nature. Man thinks that sin is what you do not what your are by nature. It is unpleasant to think of much less discuss.

The fact is that the old man, our natural being, is not only enamored with the world and the things in the world but delights in seeking self gratification through the world and its baubles. Whatever the world offers and we find pleasurable is a constant temptation to us.

But believers are no longer just creatures that seek pleasure and happiness in the world and things of the world. We have been born of God and are new creations which possesses a holy nature and hates sin.

It is a daily battle we fight within ourselves the flesh against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.

I wouldn't just be embarrassed but mortified if anyone could know the thoughts that go through my mind much less the things that I sometimes do.

But that isn't loving the world and the things in the world but the sin that is in me still. To love the world and the things in the world is to live for the gratification of self by those things. It is what the unregenerate does.

There is no such thing as a "carnal Christian". Believers are the sheep who belong to the Shepherd and they have the nature of sheep. They follow Him but sometimes stray.

Ok, good, seeking self-gratification is the appeal of things in the world which appeals to our sin nature, tempting us to pursue ungodly things in ungodly ways. This is a fair paraphrase of what you are saying?

I am still looking for a more detailed explanation of what the things of the world are, and their lure, in a way that compares to how the Israelites contrasted their worldly ways with Moses's way which was holiness in obedience to God. If there is a better example in the Bible showing the contrast between holiness and loving things of the world, can you show me? If not, can we focus on explaining the love of the world exhibited by the Israelites as they danced with their newly forged golden calf idol?

The verse I quoted earlier from Ecclesiastes says God has set the world in our hearts so we will find nothing after.....I'm not entirely sure what it means other than our tendency to be drawn to temporary things which do not give life. The concept of the world being set in our hearts is huge, and in the OP reference, the Israelites fully indulged in worldly pursuit and pleasure. I believe it's several, surely at least once, where scripture says they turned away from God and back toward the world (figuratively, Egypt) in their hearts.
They quickly fell back to their Egyptian ways when Moses tarried long in the mountain with God.

I'm still looking for a more in-depth and tangible explanation of "the world" and "loving the things of the world..." as in the OP. God calls us to walk on "THE HIGHWAY OF HOLINESS" (I forget the chapter and verse reference, easy to find if you look for it). It seems today their is little focus on the difference between holiness and worldliness. The "nutshell" explanations of "the world" or "the things of the world" make this point of topic neglect.
I'm wondering why? Many talk about holiness, but in talk alone I see little contrast between worldliness and holiness. I do appreciate the dissertations on holiness showing our hopelessness of self-justification, but only Avid has offered a comparable study of worldliness. The post about "covetousness" and "lust" being worldly as the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes was good but still lacking as the world is a subject as big as the world and it's set in our hearts so we can find nothing after....

Avid · Mar 19, 2015

PrincetonGuy said:
An excellent post! Thank you for sharing it with us.

Here is looking the OPPOSITE WAY at the same subject. What is the LIMIT for you? Where have you drawn an indelible line that YOU WILL NOT CROSS?

When you see something you liked in your sinful youth, do you cringe or wrench away like Thomas Boston said in his book, Human Nature in its Fourfold State, " O, what deformed monsters - do formerly beloved lusts appear! "

I like to joke and tease with my friends, and that includes a fellow near my age who I can discuss these things with. He and I discuss the bad behavior we see in people of the world, and that, too many times, includes Churchgoers, and even pastors and other Church officers!

As we are discussing that we each will sometimes spoof the behavior, and I tell my friend it bothers me to even pretend to act that way with only the two of us there. He shrugged off my concern, but I emphasized that I feel conviction simply playing around like that! It is a deformed monster indeed!

Both my friend and I have admitted to each other that (well over than 30 years ago) each of us drank more alcohol than we should have in a lifetime, and we related with each other the encounter with the LORD that came AFTER our last drink of that sort. I mean neither of us ever drank, or wanted a drink or condoned drinking after dealing with the LORD about it. I was married, and only drank a little when I met my brother on Friday nights for Pizza. I still thought why is it I still want that little bit? I had heard some good sermons and asked the LORD (before meeting my brother for Pizza) if He wanted me to stop. It was as clear to my heart as could be that He was telling me He wanted me to stop. That was the end of it.

Other things that covetousness may lead us to do, that is underhanded, or some other scheming way to get ahead in the world, may pop up before me, as in news stories of how a criminal or cheat was caught, AND I CRINGE. I will get a terrible feeling in my heart at the very thought of these terrible worldly ways, and the sins of the lusts. We cannot stop Satan from tempting us, but we can be armed against such attacks, and go no where near that stuff, nor entertain even a thought of them.

now faith · Mar 19, 2015

SaintJoeNow said:
It is true that we are either unholy or holy, in sin or in the Spirit, but to say there are no degrees of holiness is to imply there is no need of discipline. It is our nature to be unholy, and it is not natural for us to keep our thoughts, imaginations, desires, and actions clean, separated from the mud of sin.

Maybe you have arrived at the point of never slipping into sin other than an occasional flash of anger or something like that so you don't need to discipline yourself to reach a more realistic experience of holiness. Maybe you are shining like Moses now and it's only my unholiness that keeps me from realizing it.

What I'm getting at here is our personal experience of holiness which is experienced in degrees, and fades away quickly when we slip back from God's commands to "pray without ceasing", "rejoice evermore" "give thanks" in and for all things. God is against any of the briefest moments of unholiness in anything we do, say, think, or imagine and the incline of our heart is deceitful so we don't see, and perhaps don't even want to see, the unholiness of our own ways. We like to think we have arrived rather than to face the fact that there is still a war going on between our sin nature and the new nature born of God's Spirit. I believe Moses forgot about his sin nature (briefly) and glowed with the holiness of God because he was close to God in obedience to God. He wasn't resting with God, he was in fear of God doing what God told him to do, listening to what God had to say in fear of God, and then returned down the mountain in obedience to God. There is much more to holiness than simply resting in the fact that God owns us and separates us from Hell for Himself.

I will try on this:

Romans: 14. 14. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16. Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17. For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

Often men decide what is worldly and what is not.

I look at this:

Romans: 8. 1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

So a person may be walking after the Spirit by Faith, yet others perception is misguided.

So those walking in Faith should be careful not to offend the Brother that is weaker.

Romans: 14. 20. For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. - Bible Offline

I have always viewed Romans 14 that Paul was using metaphor as his method for teaching,
deeper truths than eating pork and drinking wine.

SaintJoeNow · Mar 19, 2015

now faith said:
I will try on this:

Romans: 14. 14. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16. Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17. For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

Often men decide what is worldly and what is not.

I look at this:

Romans: 8. 1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

So a person may be walking after the Spirit by Faith, yet others perception is misguided.

So those walking in Faith should be careful not to offend the Brother that is weaker.

Romans: 14. 20. For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. - Bible Offline

I have always viewed Romans 14 that Paul was using metaphor as his method for teaching,
deeper truths than eating pork and drinking wine.

I'm still trying to examine the difference of holiness showing in Moses vs. love of the world showing in the Israelites as they abandoned Moses and his God in favor of their Egyptian party manners with an Egyptian type idol god which was the gold calf they forged.

SaintJoeNow · Mar 19, 2015

These two old quotes posted by Avid are in line with the in-depth discussion I am looking for contrasting love of the world with Holiness. In the OP, Moses was being holy as God commands us to be holy. The Israelites in the OP could be well alluded to in these quotes from post number 29.

Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religions destroy spirituality.
Dr. Michael Ellner

America is becoming a land of men and women who God has given up. They are listening to everything except the voice of God.
Rolfe Barnard (1904-1969)

SaintJoeNow · Mar 19, 2015

now faith said:
I will try on this:

Romans: 14. 14. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16. Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17. For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

Often men decide what is worldly and what is not.

I look at this:

Romans: 8. 1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

So a person may be walking after the Spirit by Faith, yet others perception is misguided.

So those walking in Faith should be careful not to offend the Brother that is weaker.

Romans: 14. 20. For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. - Bible Offline

I have always viewed Romans 14 that Paul was using metaphor as his method for teaching,
deeper truths than eating pork and drinking wine.

I believe Paul in this passage was talking about practicing personal holiness in which his concern for the well being of his fellow believers compelled him to remain abstinent. Somewhere, I think it's in or near the passage you referenced, Paul said something like "if it causes my brother to stumble, I won't do it while the world stands" and he was referring to meats or drinks. The idea was it's better not to indulge than to indulge which may lead a weaker brother into overindulgence. Me personally, for this reason and others, am totally abstinent and against any and all use of intoxicating substances. A moments pleasure has little value and may be held against me on Judgment Day. I fear God so I don't allow indulge in any intoxications. That's one little way I practice holiness, but that does not cover the bad attitudes I fall into when things don't go my way. I'm not trying to say following a rule against intoxicating substances makes me holier than anybody else, but it is one way for me to practice holiness while I endeavor to be more like Jesus and yield my mind, body, and spirit to the Savior of my soul.

Like Paul said, "Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death"? I know the world is in my heart and the law of sin works in the members of my body and it's a war of my own making by my own faults, errors, and sin. My natural tendency is to be unholy and I'm very good at it, so good I don't even know I'm doing it most of the time when I am doing it. I pray God will drive me to my knees in repentance before I go to far off in the flesh being things I'm not supposed to be and doing things I'm not supposed to do...and a little bit off the mark is too far off. You can't be a little bit unholy. As one poster said earlier, we are either holy or we are unholy. God says "be ye holy, for I am holy, saith the Lord".

Did Paul come across as a person who was trying to say "I'm holier than you?" No. He was only trying to serve God and teach others to follow him as He followed Christ.

My Pastor says "pray every day. Read your Bible every day. Witness for the Lord whenever you can". That's a brief summary of a way to practice holiness. The problem there is the time in the middle of those activities. How can I practice holiness in those times? The commands for us to "pray without ceasing" "rejoice evermore" "in everything, rejoice", and "give thanks in all things...for all things"...........those are always going to be going on if I am being holy.

Could be my last post.

Avid · Mar 20, 2015

now faith said:
... Romans: 14. 14...

Often men decide what is worldly and what is not.

Just a little help for you, and it may clarify what you are talking about. The people that the Apostle Paul is concerned about are new "Christians" who live where everyone worships idols. If you go to the market (the shambles) and buy meat, it may have been offered to idols in sacrifice. If you did not know, it would not be wrong for you to eat it, because you were not the one who did the sacrifice.

You might go to a friend's house, and be offered a meal, not knowing the meat had (or had not) been offered to idols. If you did not know, it would not be wrong for you to eat it, because you were not the one who did the sacrifice.

If you DO KNOW, it would be wrong for you to eat of this. The act would make you part of the idol worship done in the sacrifice. Paul was talking about those who were weak in their faith, who were not going to eat any meat on the outside chance it had been offered in idol worship that God had saved them from. Paul said that he would not purposely eat meat in his own liberty of mind, if someone like that was there.

now faith said:
... Romans: 8. 1...

So a person may be walking after the Spirit by Faith, yet others perception is misguided.

So those walking in Faith should be careful not to offend the Brother that is weaker...

Paul was saying that to do this type of thing had more to do with who you were around than whether the person slaughtering the meat had offered it as a sacrifice to a false god, or not. Paul said that if you bought meat at the market, (shambles) and there is nothing telling you it was offered, DON'T ASK, and eat in faith to God, and in the liberty of your salvation.

If you were an idol worshiper that was saved from that idolatry, I should be cautious not to do things that cause your faith to be shaken. Paul was careful to explain what he meant about liberty, and not confuse the issue with being careful around weak brethren.

now faith said:
... Romans: 14. 20...

I have always viewed Romans 14 that Paul was using metaphor as his method for teaching,
deeper truths than eating pork and drinking wine.

Most people can easily tell if meat is pork or beef. This is not the real issue, but a matter of idol worship. There are passages of scripture that tell us to abstain from strong drink (specifically about getting drunk) and there are many spiritual issues involved with that.

If there is something you really should not do, it is different than what you should not do in order to NOT be a temptation, or cause confusion in the heart of a weak brother. Our examples in this day and age may be different from what Paul was dealing with. I am not about to give a list of "do's and don'ts" for anyone to follow. My suggestions would have you deal with the LORD about that.

There are things that can be considered bad behavior, that don't require you to be a Churchgoer to be under their requirements. I had seen (40 years ago) a list of requirements for a person in my trade from the mid-1800s. Don't know if it was authentic, but have good reason to thinking it could be. Things we think are not important, were expected behavior back then.

There is a famous US $1 Silver Coin that was designed back then, and, when the coin was released for circulation, a school teacher lost her job. The image of "Lady Liberty" on the Morgan Silver Dollar was such a true likeness of the woman who was the model for that artist, that she was immediately recognizable, and was fired for violating a morality clause in the school district's policy (likely all over the country) that prohibited a teacher from modeling for an artist.

Being in a different century does not change God. It may change the accepted level in the code of morality, but there is not much left here of that anymore. We each need to seek the LORD for what He expects of us, and not use the wicked world as our standard.

PrincetonGuy · Mar 20, 2015

Avid said:
We cannot stop Satan from tempting us, but we can be armed against such attacks, and go no where near that stuff, nor entertain even a thought of them.

Amen!

twin1954 · Mar 20, 2015

SaintJoeNow said:
Ok, good, seeking self-gratification is the appeal of things in the world which appeals to our sin nature, tempting us to pursue ungodly things in ungodly ways. This is a fair paraphrase of what you are saying?

I am still looking for a more detailed explanation of what the things of the world are, and their lure, in a way that compares to how the Israelites contrasted their worldly ways with Moses's way which was holiness in obedience to God. If there is a better example in the Bible showing the contrast between holiness and loving things of the world, can you show me? If not, can we focus on explaining the love of the world exhibited by the Israelites as they danced with their newly forged golden calf idol?

The verse I quoted earlier from Ecclesiastes says God has set the world in our hearts so we will find nothing after.....I'm not entirely sure what it means other than our tendency to be drawn to temporary things which do not give life. The concept of the world being set in our hearts is huge, and in the OP reference, the Israelites fully indulged in worldly pursuit and pleasure. I believe it's several, surely at least once, where scripture says they turned away from God and back toward the world (figuratively, Egypt) in their hearts.
They quickly fell back to their Egyptian ways when Moses tarried long in the mountain with God.

I'm still looking for a more in-depth and tangible explanation of "the world" and "loving the things of the world..." as in the OP. God calls us to walk on "THE HIGHWAY OF HOLINESS" (I forget the chapter and verse reference, easy to find if you look for it). It seems today their is little focus on the difference between holiness and worldliness. The "nutshell" explanations of "the world" or "the things of the world" make this point of topic neglect.
I'm wondering why? Many talk about holiness, but in talk alone I see little contrast between worldliness and holiness. I do appreciate the dissertations on holiness showing our hopelessness of self-justification, but only Avid has offered a comparable study of worldliness. The post about "covetousness" and "lust" being worldly as the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes was good but still lacking as the world is a subject as big as the world and it's set in our hearts so we can find nothing after....

First of all you need to understand that God has determined the end from the beginning. Isa. 46:10 He has determined that this world be destroyed by fire.

Therefore for us to understand what the Scriptures are dealing with is to know the spiritual truth not the physical or worldly. The Scriptures deal with religion not with the natural physical things.

The account of Moses and the Hebrews that made the golden calf are meant to teach us spiritual truth not physical. It wasn't because Moses was holy that God spoke to Him but that he was a chosen vessel and raised up to the work that was determined for him. He was prepared for that work and sent to it. You may remember that when he listened to his father-in -law he lost a great portion of the Spirit that was with him. Num. 11:17 Things were never the same with Moses after that.

The holiness that Moses wore and which they could not look upon was not Moses holiness but the holiness of the Lord. Moreover it wore off.

Now the calf that the Hebrews made do you recall what they named it? They called it Jehovah. They pretended to worship Jehovah but all the while they worshipped a false god. That is worldliness. Religion will teach and entice you to things but never to Christ alone. Just because it is called "Christian" doesn't make it so.

Religion is natural to man and he will always seek to worship that which satisfies his nature. Rom. 1:18-25 He will run to this religion or that until he finds one that suits his ideas of what and how things should be. But he will not come to Christ that he might have life. John 5:40

Moses and the golden calf is not intended to teach us about holiness but about replacing true faith with false religion.

Now what you are trying to explore is the truth of sanctification. I have much to say concerning that but since as usual it goes against the majority of religious thought I will abstain until the Lord leads me to expound on it.

twin1954 · Mar 20, 2015

The lust of the eye, the pride of life and worldliness is nothing more than the satisfying of the natural desires against God. It is anything that is not faith. Rom. 14:23

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