hmmmmm.....millenium anybody?

MrSnow said:

HisdaughterJen,

I posted a passage in which Jesus declares that Satan has been bound. You, on the other hand, say that Satan has not been bound. On what basis do you say that Satan has not been bound when Jesus clearly says that He is?

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I believe Reve 20 is just a "recap" of the rest of Revelation, at least according to my translation of the Greek.
It all ONE EVENT in my view.

Reve 11:7`And whenever they should be finishingthe testimony/witness of them, the wild-beast/n, the one ascending/upstepping out of the Abyss/f, shall be doing with them Battle/polemon <4171>, and shall be conquering them, and shall be Killing them

Rev 20:8 and he shall be coming out to deceive the nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and Magog, to be mobilizing/leading/sunagagein <4863> them into the Battle/polemon <4171> of which the number of them as the sand of the sea.

MrSnow said:

Mat 12:29 Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.

On what basis do you say that the Strong Man has not been bound?

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So, you think that Jesus was saying that Satan was bound and that's how he could cast out demons?

That makes no sense.

Satan is indeed "on the loose":
1Pe 5:8Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

Is that your idea of "bound"?

Look around. Satan is most certainly not bound. Restrained, yes. Bound, no. He also has no authority or power over the Kingdom of God.

We are Christ's representatives on earth and have the authority to bind/restrain evil.

We will be removed and then Satan will be cast to the earth with no one to restrain him.

Michael will cast him out of his place in the heavens (not the high heavens where he was already cast out). He will be earth-bound and allowed to wreak havoc for 3 1/2 years. Then Christ will actually bind him and throw him into the abyss.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

heymikey80 said:

Something to keep in mind: I'm not attacking the return of Christ. I'm challenging premillenialism claiming sole Scriptural support for itself. I consider both views to have Scriptural backing. I think both have weaknesses. I'm declaredly amil. Most people don't get what that means in the first place, so the argument normally involves educating them what the view is.

I point out facts and you say that's the only fact. It's not.

Scripture states Satan is restrained at this time.

And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 2 Th 2:6-8
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Don't you think, if Ezekiel describes the conditions for the millenial temple, that his conditions must be satisfied?

Simple. It's not "the millenial temple." It was a temple promised them on a condition, prior to the Babylonian Exile.

There's zero direct connection between Ezekiel's temple and the Millenium. None.

Why would I need to connect Ezekiel with Zechariah's references?

Is the Millenium not preceded by the First Resurrection? What's up with those resurrected people? Are you saying the unsaved are given long life during the Millenium ...?

That was the First Resurrection. Which is immediately followed by the Millenium.

The vision doesn't work chronologically for premillenialism. Take Rev 12:1-6 for instance. The ten-horned beast is there for the birth of the male child. Who do you think this future ruler would be? What point in time is meant, then?

What we're reading is a recounting of a vision. It has successive waves of images. They're not demanding a precise chronological order.

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We are currently restraining the devil. When we are removed, Michael will cast him to the earth.

God says that Israel has met the requirements for the millenial temple of Ezekiel, repeatedly, in the minor prophets, Romans, Hebrews, etc. The connection with the millenium and Ezekiel's temple is Jesus' return.

No, you are saying the same things that the two men Paul warned about said:
2Ti 2:17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
2Ti 2:18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.


You are dead wrong.
If you read 1 Cor 15, you will see that there is more than one resurrection that makes up the "first resurrection".

1Cr 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
1Cr 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.



What? The dragon who is also the beast is the devil. The male child is Christ in Rev 12.

HisdaughterJen said:

So, you think that Jesus was saying that Satan was bound and that's how he could cast out demons?

That makes no sense.

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If that is not what that passage means, can you demonstrate why that is not its meaning and what is meaning actually is?

HisdaughterJen said:

We are currently restraining the devil. When we are removed, Michael will cast him to the earth.

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On what basis do you say that we are the restrainer? I'm not saying you're wrong (although I disagree). I just want to know what leads you to that conclusion.

HisdaughterJen said:

We are currently restraining the devil. When we are removed, Michael will cast him to the earth.

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Now you've got me confused. Rev 12 says the Devil is already here.

HisdaughterJen said:

God says that Israel has met the requirements for the millenial temple of Ezekiel, repeatedly, in the minor prophets, Romans, Hebrews, etc. The connection with the millenium and Ezekiel's temple is Jesus' return.

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Oh I doubt that completely. Read Malachi 1. He's a prophet of the return from Exile. What's Malachi say about the Jewish people being ashamed of their iniquity?

Habakkuk was on the cusp of destruction. What's Habakkuk say about the Jewish people being ashamed of their iniquity?

That was the condition for Ezekiel's temple. Would you say from Habakkuk it was fulfilled? How about Malachi?

HisdaughterJen said:

No, you are saying the same things that the two men Paul warned about said:
2Ti 2:17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
2Ti 2:18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

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ROFL! You're not saying Christ's resurrection hasn't taken place. Why do you accuse me of what you yourself believe?

What's the First Resurrection?

HisdaughterJen said:

You are dead wrong.

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I'm live-right. But what difference to words of judgment make when the case hasn't been made? Let the case speak for itself, not your judgment before another speaks.

HisdaughterJen said:

If you read 1 Cor 15, you will see that there is more than one resurrection that makes up the "first resurrection".

1Cr 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
1Cr 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

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What does Paul think is the First Resurrection? cf. 1 Co 15:23.

John does say in Rev 20:4-6 that "this is the First Resurrection". So either you're thinking this entire 2000 year period is "the First Resurrection", or ... it started the Millenium when Christ was raised and people started spreading ... Christ's Kingdom.

Where does Paul talk about there being thousands of years between when Christ comes, and when the end will come? Where does Paul separate the time between the resurrection of those belonging to Christ, and the end, the Last Day of Judgment?

HisdaughterJen said:

What? The dragon who is also the beast is the devil. The male child is Christ in Rev 12.

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When is the dragon found on earth? Compare your first assertion above.

heymikey80 said:

Now you've got me confused. Rev 12 says the Devil is already here.

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The devil has been able to influence people of the earth since the garden of eden so he's been around for a long time.
Having said that, we must understand that there are different "levels" of the heavens as Paul said he was caught up to the 3rd heaven/paradise.

Satan once stood in the presence of God in the high heavens but upon his rebellion was kicked out of the high heavens and fell to...I guess...another, lower level of heaven...perhaps somewhere between earth and the 3rd heaven/paradise.

Eph 6:12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

According to Rev 12, when the man-child is taken up (representive of Christ and us since we are the body of Christ and will rule/reign with Him), then there is war in heaven and the devil will be cast down to the earth with 1/3 of the angels that he takes with him. The people are singing basically the same thing about salvation as the multitude in Rev 7.


More in a second...

HisdaughterJen said:

The devil has been able to influence people of the earth since the garden of eden so he's been around for a long time.
Having said that, we must understand that there are different "levels" of the heavens as Paul said he was caught up to the 3rd heaven/paradise.

Satan once stood in the presence of God in the high heavens but upon his rebellion was kicked out of the high heavens and fell to...I guess...another, lower level of heaven...perhaps somewhere between earth and the 3rd heaven/paradise.

Eph 6:12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

According to Rev 12, when the man-child is taken up (representive of Christ and us since we are the body of Christ and will rule/reign with Him), then there is war in heaven and the devil will be cast down to the earth with 1/3 of the angels that he takes with him. The people are singing basically the same thing about salvation as the multitude in Rev 7.

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OK.

What kind of bothers me about this, if we're not wrestling against flesh and blood, I would wonder why we'd be expecting a non-spiritual, non-new-creational kingdom of Christ over the unsaved in return. It would seem to me only a flesh & blood authority over the unsaved, without spiritual condemnation and judgment.

I don't think I need to work with levels of heaven here. Earth is not a level of heaven as far as I know. The Devil was here for the birth of the man-child who rules with a rod of iron. So the Devil's cast awhile ago. At least that's what it comes down to with me & Rev 12.

heymikey80 said:

OK.

What kind of bothers me about this, if we're not wrestling against flesh and blood, I would wonder why we'd be expecting a non-spiritual, non-new-creational kingdom of Christ over the unsaved in return. It would seem to me only a flesh & blood authority over the unsaved, without spiritual condemnation and judgment.

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Well, it appears that those who go to the New Jerusalem do not return until the millenium is over (Rev3 & Rev 21). There is some kind of governing authority of Christ during the millenium and we are reigning with Him. It has been suggested that since we will be like the angels, we will visit the earth just as they do. I am looking forward to seeing how it's all going to work out. As far as what it's going to be like on the earth, scripture says that 10 men will take hold of one Jew and go with him. It seems that people will know who God is and that Israel will be the established authority over all nations at that time.

Zec 8:23Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] God [is] with you.

Isa 2:3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.


Isa 66:10¶Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
Isa 66:11That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
Isa 66:12¶For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon [her] sides, and be dandled upon [her] knees.
Isa 66:13As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

I don't think I need to work with levels of heaven here. Earth is not a level of heaven as far as I know. The Devil was here for the birth of the man-child who rules with a rod of iron. So the Devil's cast awhile ago. At least that's what it comes down to with me & Rev 12.

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Maybe I'm trying to explain something that I don't have a complete grasp on myself. There is a lack of info on the subject in the canon of scripture. I think that Enoch 1 has some info on it which was once a part of scripture and is often quoted in scripture.

I should say that it is my understanding that the devil was kicked out of the high heavens before humans were created. There are angels who lost their place in heaven because of coming down and creating the Nephilim with human women. They are locked up in "gloomy dungeons" awaiting judgment according to Peter and Jude (and Enoch). But I don't know if those angels have anything to do with the angels that fell with satan...I'd think not because of the different timing.

Enoch describes, if I recall correctly, a spiritual place or mountains where the devil has his kingdom in the air currently. To us, I would think that would still be "in the heavens". They have power to influence people of the earth and are given that power by spiritual laws (remember, don't give the devil a foothold...when we do something that is inappropriate or "unlawful" in God's sight, we give the devil a "legal" reason to wreak havoc in our lives). Now, when the devil is finally cast all the way down to the earth with his "pals" (1/3 of the angels), then things are really going to get messy here. We are told that he will give his power to the beast and will reign for 42 months. He intends to set up his kingdom and mislead as many humans as possible with the mindset, 'if I go down, I'm taking as many humans with me as possible'.

The church (body of believers infilled with the Holy Spirit) is what restrains the devil on earth through the power of the Holy Spirit and in the name of Jesus and Michael is what restrains the devil in heaven. Once the church is removed from the earth, there is no one here to restrain the devil. Michael fights the devil in the heavens and kicks the beast and friends down to the earth where the devil then can build his "kingdom" for a 42 months before he is bound for a day(millenium), released for a short time, and then destroyed in the lake of fire.

We also know from scripture that good angels and bad angels war with each other in the heavens. Usually when that is happening, wars break out on earth. Daniel talks about the prince of Greece, and the prince of Persia, etc.

It kind of makes me feel like humans are just puppets in a twisted puppet show.

So, that's my understanding of it all at this moment. There are some here who may be able to explain better or who have more insight than I.

According to Rev 12, when the man-child is taken up (representive of Christ and us since we are the body of Christ and will rule/reign with Him), then there is war in heaven and the devil will be cast down to the earth with 1/3 of the angels that he takes with him. The people are singing basically the same thing about salvation as the multitude in Rev 7.


More in a second...

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OC Priesthood vs NC Priesthood.

John 11:48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both Our Place/topon <5117> and nation."

Hebrews 7:12 for the Priesthood being changed, of necessity also, of Law a change doth come,

Reve 12:7 And became battle in the Heaven, the Miyka'el and the messengers of him, battle with the Dragon, and the Dragon battles and the messengers of him 8 and not he is strong, neither [was] Place/topoV <5117> was found of Them still in the heaven.

MrSnow said:

If that is not what that passage means, can you demonstrate why that is not its meaning and what is meaning actually is?

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God sent Jesus who had power to restrain the devil.

It's interesting to notice that Jesus was bound (physically bound) and slaughtered.

Jhn 18:12Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him,

Then God sent the Holy Spirit in us which also has the power to restrain the devil just as Jesus did.

So, who's turn is it to be bound?

HisdaughterJen said:

God sent Jesus who had power to restrain the devil.

It's interesting to notice that Jesus was bound (physically bound) and slaughtered.

Jhn 18:12Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him,

Then God sent the Holy Spirit in us which also has the power to restrain the devil just as Jesus did.

So, who's turn is it to be bound?

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The OC Law of "Judaism" and the Priesthood?

Entering house of Strong-One.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

eiselqein <1525> (5629) This form of the greek word used 37 times and only 1 time in Revelation

Matthew 12:29 `Or how is one able to be into-coming/eiselqein<1525> (5629) into the house of the strong-one, and the goods/skeuh <4632> of him to catch-away, if ever no first he should be binding/dhsh <1210> (5661) the strong-one? And then his house he shall be plundering/diarpasei <1283> (5692).

Reve 15:8 And is dense, the sanctuary, of smoke out of the glory of the God and out of the power of Him and no one was able to be into-coming/eiselqein <1525> (5629) into the sanctuary until should be being consummated the seven stripes/scourges of the seven messengers.

If the millenium is now, then why is satan still roaming about? He's supposed to be bound for a thousand years and then released for a little while. The strong man hasn't been bound yet.

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Satan has been bound to not deceive the nations!
He's not been bound to not deceive the people.

In the past satan used the nations to fight God's people and God's plan. (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome) and in the future Satan will once again deceive the nations to fight against the saints and the holy city. (Rev 20)

Satan has been bound for a specific purpose: to not deceive the nations for the battle.

Rev 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle

Jesus himself says that the strong man has been bound.
Mattheus 12:
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Jesus casts out devils BECAUSE mr strong man has been bound. Which means that the kingdom of God has come. The kingdom is not a future thing, it's a current thing.

RhodBerth said:

Satan has been bound to not deceive the nations!
He's not been bound to not deceive the people.

In the past satan used the nations to fight God's people and God's plan. (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome) and in the future Satan will once again deceive the nations to fight against the saints and the holy city. (Rev 20)

Satan has been bound for a specific purpose: to not deceive the nations for the battle.

Rev 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle

Jesus himself says that the strong man has been bound.
Mattheus 12:
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Jesus casts out devils BECAUSE mr strong man has been bound. Which means that the kingdom of God has come. The kingdom is not a future thing, it's a current thing.

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Yes, exactly.

bigJerm said:

im confused

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What exactly confuses you?

HisdaughterJen said:

Well, it appears that those who go to the New Jerusalem do not return until the millenium is over (Rev3 & Rev 21). There is some kind of governing authority of Christ during the millenium and we are reigning with Him.

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That's not exactly a Scripture citation.

If you assume there's a political authority and that we are reigning in it, then you're assuming a premillenial or postmillenial view.

When I integrate Jesus', "My Kingdom is not of this world" I get a different picture of what His Kingdom is doing as to His rule.

RhodBerth said:

Satan has been bound to not deceive the nations!
He's not been bound to not deceive the people.

In the past satan used the nations to fight God's people and God's plan. (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome) and in the future Satan will once again deceive the nations to fight against the saints and the holy city. (Rev 20)

Satan has been bound for a specific purpose: to not deceive the nations for the battle.

Rev 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle

Jesus himself says that the strong man has been bound.
Mattheus 12:
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Jesus casts out devils BECAUSE mr strong man has been bound. Which means that the kingdom of God has come. The kingdom is not a future thing, it's a current thing.

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Strange reasoning.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should not any more deceive the nations until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little time.

Even stranger if you think of all the battles that are still going on today. Is this the 1000 years and Christ reigning?