Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment

bbbbbbb said:

'Tis a great pity that you have willfully chosen to obey only ten of the commandments that God gave to His people, Israel.

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Who said that, please do not add to my words, you will never find one post where I have ever stated we only have to obey the Ten Commandments, but I do believe we should obey all Ten just the way God spoke and wrote them, no editing to His holy Word. They were never the Ten suggestions or multiple choice.

Be well.

SabbathBlessings said:

Who said that, please do not add to my words, you will never find one post where I have ever stated we only have to obey the Ten Commandments, but I do believe we should obey all Ten just the way God said them, no editing to His holy word. They were never the Ten suggestions or multiple choice.

Be well.

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Thank you for the very prompt reply. Please tell which other commandments in the Old Testament you have chosen to obey and which you do not, and why. Thank you.

bbbbbbb said:

Thank you for the very prompt reply. Please tell which other commandments in the Old Testament you have chosen to obey and which you do not, and why. Thank you.

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No thanks, but appreciate the offer. I have discussed this to death too many times and I am not interested in going down this path again. I believe the Ten Commandments covers any other law we are to keep, the way Jesus explained Mat 5:19-30 and if we were keeping the very first commandment of the Ten Exo 20:3 we would be obeying everything God asks of us.

SabbathBlessings said:

It contrasts where its written from tablets of stone to tablets of the heart, it does not say anywhere in the Text it is different laws

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It is implicit in the text as well as a part of a cohesive spirit-led focused unique to the NT where verbatim 10 would not fit. Otherwise what's the point, you're presenting a view where "of the heart" is just a misnomer for stone. Different demands a difference, you're just wrapping the 10 with a new bow and calling it "of the heart". That doesn't fit in the reading which very clearly contrasts the two, so the expectation is that they are not the same. The old points to the new indeed, the old is a focus of the physical and very fittingly is described in the physical "of stone" the new is of the spiritual is thusly described in spiritual ways "of the heart". Here's a hint, we should not expect a physical product from Sabbath "of the heart" where we do expect a physical product from the 4th commandment

DamianWarS said:

It is implicit in the text as well as a part of a cohesive spirit-led focused unique to the NT where verbatim 10 would not fit. Otherwise what's the point, you're presenting a view where "of the heart" is just a misnomer for stone. Different demands a difference, your just wrapping the 10 with a new bow and calling it "of the heart". That doesn't fit in the reading which very clearly contrast the two, so my expectation is that they are not the same. The old points to the new indeed, the old is a focus of the physical and very fittingly is described in the physical "of stone" the new is of the spiritual is thusly is described in spiritual ways "of the heart". Here's a hint, we should not expect a physical product from Sabbath "of the heart".

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Which goes back to my earlier post in which I suggested that some folks consider the New Covenant merely to be a regurgitation of the Old Covenant and not really NEW in any viable sense of the word.

bbbbbbb said:

Which goes back to my earlier post in which I suggested that some folks consider the New Covenant merely to be a regurgitation of the Old Covenant and not really NEW in any viable sense of the word.

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If my wife made some chicken soup and asked me to try it saying it is a new recipe should I not expect something different than the old one? If it were the same I would call her out saying there's nothing different. If she called it chicken soup of the heart it would prompt me to shift my expectations to something quite different, perhaps not even soup.

If we want to relate it to soup ...

In the old agreement my wife served me chicken soup in a paper bowl- the soup grew cold quickly.

In the new covenant or agreement my wife promises to serve me chicken soup in a self-warming bowl so it stays hot.

Same chicken soup, but in the New Covenant which was established on better promises, not established on new soup, is a better promise on how I receive my soup, now the bowl is keeping the chicken soup hot, I still have to cooperate with it and eat my soup, but as long as I eat it from the new bowl my wife serves me in, its stays hot, which is much better promise than the old agreement with a paper bowl.

This keeps in harmony with what God taught Deut 4:2 Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 Heb 8:6 Heb 8:10 etc.

Better promises is what the New Covenant is established on is not the same agreement or covenant. Heb 8:6 God writing His law in our heart and mind so its internal, part of who we are and being able to keep through Him, by what He does Heb 8:10 through our love to Him John 14:15-18 is a much better promise, than trying to keep on our own, which is what the old covenant was based on Exo 19:8 its why it's still a sin to break God's law, in the NC Rom 7:7 1 John 3:4 James 2:10-12 Rev 22:14-15 Mat 5:19-30. There are a lot of better promises in the New Covenant, but sadly no one ever focus on that, they want to get rid of God's law and replace with their own version, which no scripture says to do. Nothing new under the sun Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 We would be better served to focus on the better promises on how we can overcome through Christ which reconciles Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14

SabbathBlessings said:

In the old agreement my wife served me chicken soup in a paper bowl- the soup grew cold quickly.

In the new covenant or agreement my wife promises to serve me chicken soup in a self-warming bowl so it stays hot.

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I would call that the same soup but just a different bowl. Image being in a jail being served some sort of mush every meal. Then all of a sudden the admin switches from paper bowl to pretty self warming, self stiring, self cleaning, etc... bowls. Same old gruel, different bowl.

I'm not oppose to things being universal and unchanging but the 10 do not present themselves that way. If they did, they would have been declared that since the beginning, and with Moses they would have been emphasised in that way, then with Jesus he would have made no confusions and emphasized the 10 clearly rather than call them out as lacking like he does in Mat 5.

Pulling out thematic values in creation is not the same thing. this can often hinge upon how the 4th is viewed because it can be contrasted so well.

Creation has the 7th day, it has God ceasing (sabbath verb) his work. He ceases because the work (creation) is finished and the two become one expression. This is why the number 7 is viewed as a perfect number, a number of completion, God's number. Rest is an implicit product of ceasing work but what it really is capturing is the completed state of all things so that work is not merely rested for a moment, but is not needed. Rest in this sense needs to be paired with completion in order to be valid. "Complete" means the work is finished so the work is no longer needed and rest then is its product.

This is the value of sabbath on the 7th day. It is a base construct that the law leans on. The 4th is remembering this meaning but it does so through artificial means of a forced ceasing without the completed work. Because rest/completion is the same act in creation the 4th can never rest because the work is never done. This also means the 4th is calling for one to come to complete the work so that it may finally have rest. But the forth as it stands is more of a rest of mimicry, not of rest of substance, and it alone can never reproduce the 7th day and must repeat over and over hoping one day the work will be completed.

This is a powerful salvation metaphor. Immensely so. It also exposes the 4th as only being superficial. The purpose of the 4th is not to give us rest, because it can't do that, it is to expose our inability to complete the work and then our subsequent fraud in taking rest. It is repeated over and over to remind us we cannot do it. In this sense it is no different than the sacrafice which is also waiting for the perfect one to come and complete it in order to fulfill it fully without need to repeat it over and over. This is the meaning of the 7th day found in creation, rest and work are inseparable pairs. So the 4th can never enter in this rest because the work is never complete.

This is similar language to Hebrew 3 "They shall never enter my rest" albeit a focus of unbelief, but it again exposes it's not the 4th that procures rest. We can keep on doing it over and over and yet still the answer may be "you shall never enter my rest". So it is not the 4th itself that is the integral ingredient to what God calls his rest or what is spoken of with obedience. Even if the 4th points to it, the 4th is not it, because the 4th is missing the complete work.

Jesus reminds us of this need to have completed work through his work.

Luke 12:50 "But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!"

John 4:34 "My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

John 17:4 "I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do."

And then finally...

John 19:30
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

After Jesus uttered those words, he dies on the cross. He dies on preparation day, (another reference to Christ) aka Friday before sabbath. Over sabbath his heart does not beat, his lungs do not inhale/exhale, he does not move, he does no work. He simply ceases, even his own breath. The work is complete, thus the rest is upon us. Christ has rested like no man can but he does not leave it there, he rose again and allows us to partake of that rest now.

If work is complete then rest is upon us now.

I’m going to have to stick with what God says…

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Remembering the Sabbath day to keep it holy and rest from our work is a memorial of everything God created for us without us, so we never forget Who created us and where we came from.

You say

the purpose of the Sabbath is not to give rest (the opposite means to work.)

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God said:

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

So the 4th can never enter in this rest because the work is never complete.

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We do not enter His rest through disobedience Heb 4:6 Those who enter His rest, also cease from their work as God did, on the seventh day. Heb 4:10, Heb 4:4 Exo 20:11 Gen 2:1-3

Trying to use our reasoning against what God said I just do not think is a good idea because we are not God, nor did we create the Sabbath or give its purpose Isa 58:13 Exo 20:8-11, nor are our ways above God’s ways, as if forgetting the Sabbath and doing our ways is good and Remembering the Sabbath day to keep it holy doing God’s ways is bad Isa 58:13 Isaiah 5:20 I guess it will all get sorted out soon enough

SabbathBlessings said:

I’m going to have to stick with what God says…

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Remembering the Sabbath day to keep it holy and rest from our work is a memorial of everything God created for us without us, so we never forget Who created us and where we came from.

You say



God said:

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.



We do not enter His rest through disobedience Heb 4:6 Those who enter His rest, also cease from their work as God did, on the seventh day. Heb 4:10, Heb 4:4 Exo 20:11 Gen 2:1-3

Trying to use our reasoning against what God said I just do not think is a good idea because we are not God, nor did we create the Sabbath or give its purpose Isa 58:13 Exo 20:8-11, nor are our ways above God’s ways, as if forgetting the Sabbath and doing our ways is good and Remembering the Sabbath day to keep it holy doing God’s ways is bad Isa 58:13 Isaiah 5:20 I guess it will all get sorted out soon enough

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There are dozens and dozens of commandments in the Old Testament which neither your nor I have the slightest ability to keep.

bbbbbbb said:

There are dozens and dozens of commandments in the Old Testament which neither your nor I have the slightest ability to keep.

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I am not of the belief that God gives commandments without giving one the power to keep them, especially when judging one for not keeping them. If you don;t think the Sabbath can be kept, the context of the post, that can be between you and He. It’s not what I believe or what God ever stated. He said blessed are those who keeps Isa 56:2

SabbathBlessings said:

Trying to use our reasoning against what God said I just do not think is a good idea because we are not God, nor did we create the Sabbath or give its purpose

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The purpose of the 7th day is beyond what the 4th can capture. God is not man that he needs rest, his purpose for rest is a ceasing of work because the work is complete which is an inseparable value. Completed work is the intrinsic value of the 7th day, there can be no 7th day without first a completed work. The 4th can never enter this level, because it cannot accomplish the work this it calls for one to come to complete the work.

This is also not against God, it is his purpose of the 7th day that the 4th testifies. The old covenant indeed has the commandment to keep the Sabbath but we are not under the old covenant so it is a moot point to say I reject God's commandment. I reject the 4th no more than I reject my mother's instruction to not touch the stove when I was a child. covenants have covenant boundaries, we are simply not bound to the 4th because we are not bound to the old covenant but this doesn't make it meaningless, it continues to point to God's plan.

SabbathBlessings said:

I am not of the belief that God gives commandments without giving one the power to keep them, especially when judging one for not keeping them. If you don;t think the Sabbath can be kept, the context of the post, that can be between you and He. It’s not what I believe or what God ever stated. He said blessed are those who keeps Isa 56:2

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Sabbath can be kept as the sacrafical system can be kept. The instruction is doable but the goal can never be obtained so you have to keep on repeating it. It's like this by design, ceasing is at the onset of completed work. If the work is never complete the rest is only superficial and can only be mimicked mechanically but true rest is never obtainable. We cannot complete the work so we can not obtain the rest. In this sense sabbath cannot be kept.

In modern living sabbath is far harder to keep and arguably near impossible. Because of systems we cannot turn off like the internet, electricity, telephone, cell phone, etc... We are constantly partaking of these systems that require a workforce to run. fully unplugging seems to be a step beyond what people are willing to do even when addressing non essential use. We simply do not want to live without these systems and have no issue using lights, or sending an email or text even though it is increasing non-essential demand for systems that require a workforce to run. There is a hamster wheel at the end of these services that is out of "sight so out of mind". We seem to fail to realize a collective christian response of minimizing these services on the Sabbath would have dramatic impact on the demand which would translate to a reduced workforce matters or is something worth keeping. But we're content to ignore these things which means we don't keep the sabbath we keep an amended version so we can still maintain our comfort. That message will never be preached or applauded and that's a problem amoung sabbath keepers, and apparently a problem no one cares about.

The superfical rest of the Sabbath also has its issues. It can only be kept if you draw a line between what is called work and what is not called work (which we've adjusted for modern use) When we remove that line, sabbath cannot be kept because the logic of it goes to our beating heart and the breath we take. The logic of sabbath in this sense is unkeepable.

Christ answers both, he completes the work so that rest can be ushered in, and when he utters his last "it is finished" (which completes the work) he enters sabbath ceasing even his breath and his heart beat over the entire sabbath day. In this Christ ushers in a sabbath that none before him could and he ceases like none before him could.

We can keep the instruction of the 4th, albeit a modern amended version of it (that no one wants to talk about) regardless of how far we move the line to make it easier only Christ can fulfill it.

We are so far apart in our understanding of God's Word, no point in continuing.

Be well.

SabbathBlessings said:

I am not of the belief that God gives commandments without giving one the power to keep them, especially when judging one for not keeping them. If you don;t think the Sabbath can be kept, the context of the post, that can be between you and He. It’s not what I believe or what God ever stated. He said blessed are those who keeps Isa 56:2

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When was the last time you went up to Jerusalem to offer any of the commanded sacrifices? God has specifically commanded a wide range of sacrifices - not merely for sin but for many other reasons. Did you offer a young lamb without blemish when your child was born, or, lacking that, a pair of turtledoves?

bbbbbbb said:

When was the last time you went up to Jerusalem to offer any of the commanded sacrifices? God has specifically commanded a wide range of sacrifices - not merely for sin but for many other reasons. Did you offer a young lamb without blemish when your child was born, or, lacking that, a pair of turtledoves?

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The Sabbath started at Creation Exo 20:11, no sacrifices because there was no sin. No sacrifices in the Sabbath commandment, Exo 20:8-11 nowhere does it say the Sabbath can only be kept in Jerusalem. Sacrifices ended at the Cross, yet its still a sin to break the least of the commandments Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Human reasoning is not the same as what God says.

I am going to say the same thing as to your friend Damien. We are too far apart in our understanding of God's holy Word and that's ok, all gets sorted out soon enough.

Be well.

SabbathBlessings said:

The Sabbath started at Creation Exo 20:11, no sacrifices because there was no sin. No sacrifices in the Sabbath commandment, Exo 20:8-11 nowhere does it say the Sabbath can only be kept in Jerusalem. Sacrifices ended at the Cross, yet its still a sin to break the least of the commandments Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Human reasoning is not the same as what God says.

I am going to say the same thing as to your friend Damien. We are too far apart in our understanding of God's holy Word and that's ok, all gets sorted out soon enough.

Be well.

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Your assertion that God never gave any commands that cannot be kept by people is, therefore, patently false.

My view is that the Sabbath day, which is holy, as God said it is, could not be observed properly, until Jesus came, who did do that, and giving himself, provided atonement for us. Then it was only through Jesus that the seventh day of the week, the Sabbath, was observed properly, in him. Yes, I do seek to not work in ways that are secular, for profiting materially, or distracting from God, but doing any good to be helpful to others is proper for this, in Jesus there is the real needed rest, so no legalism is applying in this.