Hindus explaining hinduism

selwyn · Jul 22, 2005

Hinduism as portrayed by hindus here seems to be filled with highly inconsistent viewpoints. I am just putting in here the links to some of the discussions involving hindus. It seems that at times, they try to defend exactly opposite viewpoints. There seems to be too many flaws in their discussion on the whole. And when someone asks about these things, often the answer that is given is that "You hardly know anything about hinduism and therefore it cannot be explained to you" But isn't it true that anyone else belonging to any other religion can give the same defense?

One of the main problems that I think with hinduism (as atleast represented by few hindus here) is its attempt to include anything and everything within its fold from atheism to montheism to polytheism and every other "isms" that one can come across and may come across in future. To start with, some hindus here argue that hinduism even includes christianity, islam, buddhism, jainism.atheism, pantheism and every other isms. But later, through the discussion, atleast they seem to think that they can debate out every other system out there. Let me put together some of the links of the threads here where I have found lot of conflicting claims not only by hindus from different sects (which can be understood) but also by individuals in there. I am giving the links here so that whoever wants to go through these can also understand the context of the discussion.

Some of the claims by Ram here:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16972848&postcount=21

It will be good to go through what satay was talking in the same thread before going through this following link:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16972378&postcount=113

The following link is from 15 questions for all thread :

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=17104283&postcount=139

The following links are from the thread "Regarding sanskrit and hinduism"

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=17074324&postcount=45

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=17080482&postcount=48
Ofcourse there are other conflicting or atleast subtle and misleading claims by other hindus all of which cannot be put together here just for the want of time.

I know that hindus here may even claim that these observations make no sense. But can any hindu here, atleast at this point put together a consistent and most accepted opinion of what hinduism is just for a restart?

Some of the questions to start:

Do hindus believe in God? Can someone be a hindu and still not believe in any God? There has been claims that one following the message of the so called "eterrnal dharma' is the most important factor. Is this true or false? Can the hindus include atheists (as hindus) who even according to hindus may be following the fundamental tenets of their so called dharma,(because it is accepted in hinduism that bits of truth is available in different books)? What is this so called "enlightenment" according to hindus? Can hindus or anyone violate their scriptures or atleast part of their scripture if they claim to know God or claim to have seen God? Is it required that one has to believe "God" to read or understand gita? These are just some questions to begin with? Do hindus believe that all are made equal? Do hindus believe in spiritual superiority and some spiritual classification? What do you mean by caste system in hinduism?

indianx · Jul 22, 2005

Do not generalize the views of a billion people based on the opinions of a couple of people in this forum.

selwyn · Jul 22, 2005

indianx said:
Do not generalize the views of a billion people based on the opinions of a couple of people in this forum.

Okay. I have even edited the title now. I had taken care to use the term "hindus here" often in my post but missed it out on the title of the thread. Is that more clear now?

arunma · Jul 22, 2005

Well, this should be an interesting thread.

indianx said:
Do not generalize the views of a billion people based on the opinions of a couple of people in this forum.

It seems to me that the Hindus here ought to form a more or less random sample of all Hindus. But I agree with Selwyn, Hindus seem to express completely contradictory viewpoints. The differences between, say, Vaisnavism and Saivism, are acceptable. But the people here express such a diversity of beliefs that it seems impossible for them to form a united position on any issue, with the possible exception of the universal Hindu belief that converting to Christianity is bad.

indianx · Jul 22, 2005

selwyn said:
Okay. I have even edited the title now. I had taken care to use the term "hindus here" often in my post but missed it out on the title of the thread. Is that more clear now?

It doesn't matter to me anyhow. I think the people you directed the post to can explain their positions better than me. You can't point out a single post of mine that applies to your opinions in your post, so I will refrain from answering for others.

sanaa · Jul 22, 2005

selwyn said:
It seems that at times, they try to defend exactly opposite viewpoints.

example?

There seems to be too many flaws in their discussion on the whole.

its funny , we feel the same about you !

And when someone asks about these things, often the answer that is given is that "You hardly know anything about hinduism and therefore it cannot be explained to you"

i wish you would stop misrepresenting things and putting words in peoples mouths or changing the words that was said by them . we did not say it cannot be explained to you because u know little about hinduism , we said u dont seem to have any genuine learning attitude , we said u seem to attack the religion without having any real knowledge about it . its funny how we answer everyone else's questions on hinduism isnt it . there have been long threads here before "Ask the hindus" ( more than 1) and we have explained things to people who know very little about hinduism . then why are u one of the few ones with the problem?

One of the main problems that I think with hinduism (as atleast represented by few hindus here) is its attempt to include anything and everything within its fold from atheism to montheism to polytheism and every other "isms" that one can come across and may come across in future. To start with, some hindus here argue that hinduism even includes christianity, islam, buddhism, jainism.atheism, pantheism and every other isms. But later, through the discussion, atleast they seem to think that they can debate out every other system out there. Let me put together some of the links of the threads here where I have found lot of conflicting claims not only by hindus from different sects (which can be understood) but also by individuals in there. I am giving the links here so that whoever wants to go through these can also understand the context of the discussion.

i believe am repeating this but hinduism is a vast religion with a vast number of beliefs . it is not a homogeneous unit of beliefs . it does not view the world as black and white . it gives different people different ways to reach the divine and worship in different ways . this depends on ones spiritual development. no way is condemened , not even atheism . depending on ones karma one adopts a particular path , but the goal is monotheistic worship of Vishnu . that is the mainstream view though unorthodox schools may feel differently . however its been experienced that these schools lose in debates to the vaishnavites .
i hope u understand now

Some of the questions to start:

am off to bed , ill address them later if no hindu answers first

indianx · Jul 22, 2005

indianx said:
Do not generalize the views of a billion people based on the opinions of a couple of people in this forum.

I think I need to make an important change here.

Do not generalize the views of a billion people based on what you believe to be the opinions of a couple of people in this forum.

rahul_sharma · Jul 22, 2005

Very contradictory thread ,

1) Selwyn, you have declared openly that you don't know anything about Hinduism, Right?
2) Selwyn, you have declared openly, that you don't even want to learn ANTHING from Hindus about Hinduism, Right?

The following links are from the thread "Regarding sanskrit and hinduism"

http://www.christianforums.com/show...24&postcount=45

http://www.christianforums.com/show...82&postcount=48

I didn't found any problem in these links. What is the problem , selwyn?

The following link is from 15 questions for all thread :

http://www.christianforums.com/show...3&postcount=139

Here, Ram has clearly explained the difference between door to door conversions of Christianity and Hindu view of Conversions. Can't you read....or you don't want to read and understand?

Yes, i agree there may be different views between two Hindus discussing same topic. It's mainly because we have not divided ourself like hardcore sects of Christianity under different names ...Protestants , Baptists and Catholics etc etc.... Even after having some different views on certain topics we still like to call ourself Hindus under one name "Hinduism" rather than dividing ourself like intolerant sects of Christianity and Islam. Only difference here is , instead of dividing ourself, different schools of thought are united in Hinduism - UNITY IN DIVERSITY which is sometimes missing in others.

One of the main problems that I think with hinduism (as atleast represented by few hindus here) is its attempt to include anything and everything within its fold from atheism to montheism to polytheism and every other "isms" that one can come across and may come across in future. To start with, some hindus here argue that hinduism even includes christianity, islam, buddhism, jainism.atheism, pantheism and every other isms. But later, through the discussion, atleast they seem to think that they can debate out every other system out there. Let me put together some of the links of the threads here where I have found lot of conflicting claims not only by hindus from different sects (which can be understood) but also by individuals in there. I am giving the links here so that whoever wants to go through these can also understand the context of the discussion.

I think you also misunderstood here (AS USUAL).

Hinduism accepts all paths. It means Hinduism recognise all religions. It doesn't mean all religions or paths are equal to Hinduism. Hinduism is most spiritual and advanced path according to Hindus and other religions are an attempt towards same goal but they are in a lower spiritual stage. Its like a University student who knows, understand and recognises school of a Kid. Divine Spiritual understanding is a step by step procedure , please understand.

Some of the questions to start:

Do hindus believe in God? Can someone be a hindu and still not believe in any God? There has been claims that one following the message of the so called "eterrnal dharma' is the most important factor. Is this true or false? Can the hindus include atheists (as hindus) who even according to hindus may be following the fundamental tenets of their so called dharma,(because it is accepted in hinduism that bits of truth is available in different books)? What is this so called "enlightenment" according to hindus? Can hindus or anyone violate their scriptures or atleast part of their if they claim to know God or claim to have seen God? Is it required that one has to believe "God" to read or understand gita? These are just some questions to begin with? Do hindus believe that all are made equal? Do hindus believe in spiritual superiority and some spiritual classification? What do you mean by caste system in hinduism?

Only thing logical in this OP is this part. Although many Hindus have explained many of these questions but i think (as you said) , you were not interested in LEARNING about Hinduism at that time.
Don't worry , Hindus here (including me) will answer these questions AGAIN soon. I hope this time you are asking them sincearly and you are in a mood to learn.

sefroth77 · Jul 22, 2005

selwyn said:
Do hindus believe in God? Can someone be a hindu and still not believe in any God? There has been claims that one following the message of the so called "eterrnal dharma' is the most important factor. Is this true or false? Can the hindus include atheists (as hindus) who even according to hindus may be following the fundamental tenets of their so called dharma,(because it is accepted in hinduism that bits of truth is available in different books)? What is this so called "enlightenment" according to hindus? Can hindus or anyone violate their scriptures or atleast part of their if they claim to know God or claim to have seen God? Is it required that one has to believe "God" to read or understand gita? These are just some questions to begin with? Do hindus believe that all are made equal? Do hindus believe in spiritual superiority and some spiritual classification? What do you mean by caste system in hinduism?

Does Animal have Souls ? Is Jesus God ? Questions for you.. Anyway i'll shall answer your questions.

Do hindus believe in God?

Yes.

Can someone be a hindu and still not believe in any God?

Theres no such thing as Hindu,Muslim or Christian, These are Bodily concept, name calling. The Spirit Soul within the Body is the True Self which is Equal to everyone. A Person who dosen't believe in a existence of a God is known as a Athiest still he should be respected as a Spirit Soul being covered by a Material Body which is subjected to destruction in due course of time.

There has been claims that one following the message of the so called "eterrnal dharma' is the most important factor. Is this true or false?

If One following Christinaity the most important factor ?...Yes Eternal Dharma and Buddism are ways for a Soul to escape the Reincarnation entanglement so in this aspect it is a important factor. Everybody will be given a chance over the course of millions of births.

Can the hindus include atheists (as hindus) who even according to hindus may be following the fundamental tenets of their so called dharma,(because it is accepted in hinduism that bits of truth is available in different books)?

Even Atheists are considered Human-Beings, by excluding them is going against the principles of Sanatana Dharma. A Good Atheist who does social service to others is also considered a Good Human-being who have accumlated Good-Karma to ensure a Much elavated Birth in his next Life.

What is this so called "enlightenment" according to hindus?

Enlightenment in my context is When a Soul realise his/her True Nature that he/she is Not this Body and starts a process to shape his next body which is obviously liberation from this Material Universe. So in this case one can say This person is Enlighted, meaning he sees no duality and gives up all material desires and always devote himself to God. Most of the time the Soul has already taken birth many times and finally reaches to a stage where it knows its actual position. A Person may be a Muslim now, next birth as a Hindu, the following birth as a Learned Hindu, finally he takes birth in a pious family and becomes a Yogi, Being a Yogi makes him enlighted and he prepares for liberation.

Can hindus or anyone violate their scriptures or atleast part of their if they claim to know God or claim to have seen God?

Nobody can violate the scriptures, its a great sin, if anybody have known God or claim to see God, must have been predicted in the Vedic Scriptures, God's Original Plan is all in the scriptures, since he knows the Past,present and future.

Good example is Kalki Avatar the Last incarnation of God(2nd coming of christ) many people claim to be Kalki, Muslims says Muhammad is Kalki, Devotess of Sai baba says he is Kalki and so on, but if one refers to the scriptues it clearly says Lord Kalki will appeared at the end Of Kali-Yuga, 427,000 years from now. 5000years of Kali-Yuga have passed. Kalki will appeared on the white horse with a Sword on his hand. Those who have knowleage know when Kalki is coming based on scriptural evidence.

Is it required that one has to believe "God" to read or understand gita?

It dosen't matter if you are a Christian,Muslim or Hindu, God should be loved and his names should be glorified thats all. Christ,Allah or Krishna it doesn't matter. Christ(the anointed one) Krishna(All Attractive) all refer to the same person. He has millions of names in different languages and cultures. Bhagavad Gita is the Science Of God, The Bhagavad Gita gives exact information regarding God, the soul, material nature, birth, death and life after death.

Anybody can read the Gita, Even a Athiest can read the Gita and understand the concept of God found in it. Its up to the individual to keep faith with it, I as a ex-Muslim have found the Truth in the Gita.

Do hindus believe that all are made equal?

A Brahmin is a Person who sees equality in All living beings. So in this concept everyone is equal. But in terms of Quality, Humans are born with a certain degree of intelligence(IQ level) which varies based on the Bodily concept.which indirectly is base on the Karmatic influnce and the Mode of Nature which he has undertaken in his previous birth, The Soul within the Body is equal and in that sense everybody should be treated equally and with respect, that includes Animals and all other living beings.

Do hindus believe in spiritual superiority and some spiritual classification?

Yes Some people are Spiritualy Advanced. Anybody can have this advancement. There are many jesus like figures in India. There are Yogis who have spiritual powers like Healing the sick and expanding himself 8 times in different location yet situated in one place, David Blaine the magician is another example of a Advanced person.

A ADVANCED YOGI

What do you mean by caste system in hinduism?

Theres no such word as Caste. Its actual name is Varna. Varna means Jobs classification. Anybody can be Brahmin(provided he has the qualities). A Sudra like me at the moment can one day be a Brahmin if i have the necessary qualities, or Brahmin if he failed in his duties can be classified as a Sudra.

"Brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy." (BG 18.41)

"If one shows the symptoms of being a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification." (SB 7.11.35)

Brahmins(Teachers,Priest,Scholars)
Ksatriya(Rulers,Soldiers,)
Vaisya(Merchants Farmers,Artisan)
Sudras(Workers, Laborers)

So the Varna system is based more on Qualities rather than Birth.

sanaa · Jul 22, 2005

just to clarify one point , seffroth is a hare krishna so if there any differences between his replies and ours , ull no why .

indianx · Jul 22, 2005

I am doubtful of the comparison between David Blaine and a true yogi. A yogi wouldn't flaunt his capabilities in public just to gain fame and money.

sefroth77 · Jul 22, 2005

sanaa said:
just to clarify one point , seffroth is a hare krishna so if there any differences between his replies and ours , ull no why .

indianx said:
I am doubtful of the comparison between David Blaine and a true yogi. A yogi wouldn't flaunt his capabilities in public just to gain fame and money.

I never said he was a yogi

rahul_sharma · Jul 22, 2005

sefroth77 said:

PaulGi · Jul 22, 2005

I wonder if this thread is going to be closed as it can be Interpreted as promotion of hinduism.

Paul

rahul_sharma · Jul 22, 2005

No, it shouldn't be closed because it was started by a Christian and not Hindu. Now, if any Christian wants to promote Hinduism (accidently), what can we do Paul G.

indianx · Jul 22, 2005

sefroth77 said:
I never said he was a yogi

Sorry, my mistake. But, I still don't think he is an "advanced person", he has skill and talent in doing his magic tricks, but that doesn't mean anything spiritually.

PaulGi · Jul 22, 2005

sefroth77 said:
Even Atheists are considered Human-Beings, by excluding them is going against the principles of Sanatana Dharma. A Good Atheist who does social service to others is also considered a Good Human-being who have accumlated Good-Karma to ensure a Much elavated Birth in his next Life.

Very interesting. Quite different than the abrahmic religions where atheists are despised. This is why I am beginning to like Hinduism although not an atheist myself.

Enlightenment in my context is When a Soul realise his/her True Nature that he/she is Not this Body and starts a process to shape his next body which is obviously liberation from this Material Universe. So in this case one can say This person is Enlighted, meaning he sees no duality and gives up all material desires and always devote himself to God. Most of the time the Soul has already taken birth many times and finally reaches to a stage where it knows its actual position. A Person may be a Muslim now, next birth as a Hindu, the following birth as a Learned Hindu, finally he takes birth in a pious family and becomes a Yogi, Being a Yogi makes him enlighted and he prepares for liberation.

Interesting again. So basically, Hinduism or eternal dharma is for everyone regardless of their current religion. It seems that the eternal dharma is universal and applies to everyone. Am I correct?

It dosen't matter if you are a Christian,Muslim or Hindu, God should be loved and his names should be glorified thats all. Christ,Allah or Krishna it doesn't matter. Christ(the anointed one) Krishna(All Attractive) all refer to the same person. He has millions of names in different languages and cultures. Bhagavad Gita is the Science Of God, The Bhagavad Gita gives exact information regarding God, the soul, material nature, birth, death and life after death.

Yes, I have heard about this before. You mean I can call Krishna Jesus and it is still okay, my soul still advances towards God?

Is there a concept of Hell in Hinduism?

A Brahmin is a Person who sees equality in All living beings. So in this concept everyone is equal. But in terms of Quality, Humans are born with a certain degree of intelligence(IQ level) which varies based on the Bodily concept.which indirectly is base on the Karmatic influnce and the Mode of Nature which he has undertaken in his previous birth, The Soul within the Body is equal and in that sense everybody should be treated equally and with respect, that includes Animals and all other living beings.

I am not much familiar with karma theory. Please elaborate, if possible. The soul is equal but Mode of Nature is not. What is this Mode of nature?

Theres no such word as Caste. Its actual name is Varna. Varna means Jobs classification. Anybody can be Brahmin(provided he has the qualities). A Sudra like me at the moment can one day be a Brahmin if i have the necessary qualities, or Brahmin if he failed in his duties can be classified as a Sudra.

"Brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy." (BG 18.41)

"If one shows the symptoms of being a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification." (SB 7.11.35)

Brahmins(Teachers,Priest,Scholars)
Ksatriya(Rulers,Soldiers,)
Vaisya(Merchants Farmers,Artisan)
Sudras(Workers, Laborers)

So the Varna system is based more on Qualities rather than Birth.

Interesting again. I didn't know this about Caste system.

Thanks for a wonderful post.

Paul

PaulGi · Jul 22, 2005

rahul_sharma said:
No, it shouldn't be closed because it was started by a Christian and not Hindu. Now, if any Christian wants to promote Hinduism (accidently), what can we do Paul G.

Well, I hope this thread is not closed as I am learning a lot from these threads even though they seem to have been started with some kind of negative tone. I can't be sure of this though just a feeling.

Paul

Ram · Jul 22, 2005

selwyn said:
Hinduism as portrayed by hindus here seems to be filled with highly inconsistent viewpoints. I am just putting in here the links to some of the discussions involving hindus. It seems that at times, they try to defend exactly opposite viewpoints. There seems to be too many flaws in their discussion on the whole. And when someone asks about these things, often the answer that is given is that "You hardly know anything about hinduism and therefore it cannot be explained to you" But isn't it true that anyone else belonging to any other religion can give the same defense?

One of the main problems that I think with hinduism (as atleast represented by few hindus here) is its attempt to include anything and everything within its fold from atheism to montheism to polytheism and every other "isms" that one can come across and may come across in future. To start with, some hindus here argue that hinduism even includes christianity, islam, buddhism, jainism.atheism, pantheism and every other isms. But later, through the discussion, atleast they seem to think that they can debate out every other system out there. Let me put together some of the links of the threads here where I have found lot of conflicting claims not only by hindus from different sects (which can be understood) but also by individuals in there. I am giving the links here so that whoever wants to go through these can also understand the context of the discussion.

Some of the claims by Ram here:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16972848&postcount=21

It will be good to go through what satay was talking in the same thread before going through this following link:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16972378&postcount=113

The following link is from 15 questions for all thread :

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=17104283&postcount=139

The following links are from the thread "Regarding sanskrit and hinduism"

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=17074324&postcount=45

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=17080482&postcount=48
Ofcourse there are other conflicting or atleast subtle and misleading claims by other hindus all of which cannot be put together here just for the want of time.

I know that hindus here may even claim that these observations make no sense. But can any hindu here, atleast at this point put together a consistent and most accepted opinion of what hinduism is just for a restart?

I wanted to ignore thispost of yours because of your attitude:

You have shown an attitude that is akin to a Hindu who posts like this here:

1. I am a Hindu.
2. I dont know anything about christianity.
3. I dont want to know anything about it as I know it is FALSE.
4. I have not read the bible but I know it is full of contradictions.
5. I also know Jesus was a liar when he said he was a son of God.
6. I will criticize Christianity whenever I find a chance because I
dont like christians and also there are many christian denominations which have contrdictory positions.
What response can I expect from CF members if a HIndu posts this here?

Assuming you are posting these questions with an intention of knowing rather than ridiculing or finding "holes" , I am answering some of your questions for the last time. Hope you disply better spirit and tolerance.

Do hindus believe in God?

Yes, true Hindus do. But nothing in Hinduism forces beliefs. No atheist is shown permanent hell for this reason. Each person gets multiple or rather infinite chances to correct and perfect himself. That is why we call God as merciful.

Can someone be a hindu and still not believe in any God?

Yes, but atheism can rarely lead to God in that very birth due to obvious reasons.

There has been claims that one following the message of the so called "eterrnal dharma' is the most important factor. Is this true or false?

The laws of gravity!

Can the hindus include atheists (as hindus) who even according to hindus may be following the fundamental tenets of their so called dharma,(because it is accepted in hinduism that bits of truth is available in different books)?

Yes, but anything is not dharma.

What is this so called "enlightenment" according to hindus?

The state of knowing God is called enlightenment.(not from scripture)

Can hindus or anyone violate their scriptures or atleast part of their scripture if they claim to know God or claim to have seen God?

The objective of scripture is to find God. Once that is reached, what use is the scripture? Why do you need a small pond when you have all the ocean with you?

Is it required that one has to believe "God" to read or understand gita?

Yes, why would an atheist read Gita anyway. However, if it inspires an atheist, it is good.

Do hindus believe in spiritual superiority and some spiritual classification?

Yes. Souls are in different spiritual states. But intrinsically are souls are equal. Every soul may be compared to a perfectly shining mirror. Different souls have different amounts of dirt on the mirror prevent them from seeing GOD. Once the dirt(karma) is removed, the soul shines in all glory.

What do you mean by caste system in hinduism?

Explained many times, go back and read.

Regards,
Ram

PaulGi · Jul 22, 2005

sanaa said:
i believe am repeating this but hinduism is a vast religion with a vast number of beliefs . it is not a homogeneous unit of beliefs . it does not view the world as black and white . it gives different people different ways to reach the divine and worship in different ways . this depends on ones spiritual development. no way is condemened , not even atheism . depending on ones karma one adopts a particular path , but the goal is monotheistic worship of Vishnu . that is the mainstream view though unorthodox schools may feel differently . however its been experienced that these schools lose in debates to the vaishnavites .
i hope u understand now

Click to expand...

Interesting! Hinduism seems very vast and can be a bit intimidating for an outsider. I know it is for me. It seems to be offering spiritual advancement to all depending on their current level of understanding of their self. Am I correct in concluding that?

Paul

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