Heretics / Non-Trinitarians

LightBearer · Oct 24, 2003

Tinker Grey said:
Karaite,

In my opinion, your stance of non-trinitarian has no bearing on your salvation.

Tinker

YOU are standing at your front door, fumbling with your keys. It is cold and dark, and you are eager to get insidebut the key doesn't work. It looks alright, but the lock won't budge. How frustrating! You look at your keys again. Are you using the right one? Has someone damaged the key?

This is a fair picture of what this worlds religious confusion has done with the knowledge of God. In effect, many have tampered with the key that opens it up to our understandingJesus Christ. Some religions have removed the key, ignoring Jesus altogether. Others have distorted Jesus role, worshiping him as Almighty God. In any case, the knowledge of God is closed to us without an accurate understanding of this principal figure, Jesus Christ.

Remember what Jesus said at John 17:3 "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, andof the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ". This cleary states that our salvation definately depends on our knowing the True Nature of God the Father and Jesus Christ.

The Scriptures emphasize repeatedly the need for accurate knowledge of Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 4:13; Colossians 2:2; 2 Peter 1:8; 2:20) To [Jesus Christ] all the prophets bear witness, noted the apostle Peter. (Acts 10:43) Paul also wrote: Carefully concealed in [Jesus] are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge. (Colossians 2:3) Paul even said that all of Gods promises come true because of Jesus. (2 Corinthians 1:20) So Jesus is the very key to the knowledge of God. Our knowledge of Jesus must be free of any distortions as to his nature and as to his role in Gods arrangement and purpose, otherwise, just as a distorted or bent key cant open a door, so to, if our knowledge of Jesus is distorted or incorrect, then we cannot open the door to the knowledge of God.

Is our having Accurate Knowledge of Jesus important. You bet your everlasting life it is.

Tinker Grey · Oct 24, 2003

LightBearer said:
This cleary states that our salvation definately depends on our knowing the True Nature of God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Well, then, I guess we're all lost.

catholic storm · Oct 24, 2003

you don't believe in father, son, and holy spirit? well, as a traditional catholic, i could go on for hours on this subject. as it is, i advise you to read the bible. you'll find proof that anti-trinity or whatever is heretical (i don't mean to use that word to scare, but it's a serious thing), and you can't truly call yourself a christian if you hold that belief.

LightBearer · Oct 25, 2003

Tinker Grey said:
Well, then, I guess we're all lost.

Now now, dont be negative. God is not unknowable in fact the Apostle Peter stated.

The God that made the world and all the things in it, being, as this One is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples, neither is he attended to by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all [persons] life and breath and all things. And he made out of one [man] every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of [men], for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. Acts 17:24-27

And we have these assurances from Isaiah and from God himself.

"Search for Jehovah, YOU people, while he may be found. Call to him while he proves to be near" Isaiah 55:6

"And YOU will actually seek me and find [me], for YOU will search for me with all YOUR heart. And I will let myself be found by YOU, is the utterance of Jehovah" Jeremiah 29:13-14

Karaite · Oct 25, 2003

you don't believe in father, son, and holy spirit? well, as a traditional catholic, i could go on for hours on this subject. as it is, i advise you to read the bible.

Perhaps you can enlighten me, and just quote me where it says "here is the Trinity"? I mean, that is the only way I could actually see the Trinity in there, because other wise, there is no such thing in there that talks about the trinity, not explicitly, nor implicitly.

LightBearer,

I agree, it is necessary to understand the role of Jesus Christ in the grand scheme of salvation. But, perhaps, God might not require perfect understanding, but would allow the imperfect to be imperfect in his understanding?

Using your example of the key:

Say, you come to the door, and all of a sudden, the lights go out. You are already standing infront of the door, you have the keys in your hands, but you can't see anything. What do you do next? Well, since you can't see, you obviously can't just extend your hand, and put the key in. Yet, you would extend your hand to feel the door, and try to locate where the lock is, and then after you have found the lock, you try to use your key. You might do it with difficulty, but I bet you would eventually get the door unlocked. (At least that is how it works with me.)

So, what am I saying? Well, perhaps, some people have the Bible infront of them, and they understand it at one point. But then, with all the different teachings, the pressure from one group, the condemnations that they throw out at you, you become misguided. You are no longer able to see clearly, yet you have not wandered too far away from the truth, so you are still within "reach" of it. Like the person extending his hands to feel the door, you can still extend your hands to reach God. And though with much more difficulty than if you could see it all clearly, the fact that you can reach Him will be good enough to allow you a place in His kingdom.

Now, I can't be sure of this, but we know that God's mercy can reach out very far. And though I would not dare extend such analogy to the idea of people who are of completely separate religions, or people who have abandoned the Bible, I would think that there could be some room for error in this aspect.

Peterson · Oct 25, 2003

Hey catholic storm. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches the trinity as the Roman church defines it. The Father, Son and Holy Spiriit are not three separate but coequal entities that operate exclusively through the Roman church.

Tinker Grey · Oct 25, 2003

LightBearer said:
Now now, dont be negative. God is not unknowable in fact the Apostle Peter stated.

Nevertheless, your previous post says that True Knowledge[sup](tm)[/sup] and Accurate Knowledge were necessary.

Can we know God totally? I don't think so.

If we cannot know God totally (and I do not believe that even in Eternity that this will be possible), then how much knowledge is required for salvation. Is total accuracy possible without total knowledge? I don't think so.

I guess we could be accurate in the amount of knowledge that we have. But how would one judge one's knowledge without total true knowledge?

My point is that, to some extent, we are dependent on the mercy of God.

Should we judge (in the evaluative sense) those who disagree with us? On what basis would we do so? If we can't judge the accuracy of our own views, we certainly have no rational basis for judging anyone else's.

Trinity -- in the sense of 3 distinct persons of one essense -- requires an interpretation of scripture.
Trinity -- in the sense of 3 distinct persons of 3 distinct essenses -- requires an interpretation of scripture.
Modalism -- that God is one and has operated in one of 3 distinct essenses -- requires an interpretation.
Karaite's position (if I understand correctly) -- that Jesus is a lesser spiritual being, that being begotten requires creation albeit from God's own essense, ex Deo, if you will, rather than ex Nihilo-- requires an interpretation of scripture.

None of these positions is totally without Biblical foundation (except the one I didn't include -- that Jesus was merely Man).

Each requires that we come to God with the prayer, "I don't fully understand what you did for me. I know I didn't deserve it. Please, in the name of Jesus, your son, and the work he did on the cross, adopt me into your family."

Humbly approaching God in this manner is what is required for salvation, IMHO.

Are all our beliefs static? Must they be? If I accept Christ on the basis of the list element A above, then later change my understanding to element B, have I lost my salvation? (If you are OSAS, change the question to "was I ever saved in the first place?".)

FTR, I accept element A, above. I believe that it makes the most sense scripturally and logically. I will NOT, however, dare to condemn Karaite's position (even if I misrepresent it.)

Tinker

Karaite · Oct 25, 2003

Well, Tinker, you pretty much understand what I said--so no misrepresentation there.

Now, I don't think LightBearer was trying to say that we need to understand God with perfection; but that we need to understand Jesus' role, in so far as salvation goes.

As far as the subject of interpretation goes, we have two forms of interpretations. In one, we have the direct interpretation of the brain (mind, or whatever you want to replace that with), which is simple "thought process". This is different from the commonly known interpretation that is prevalent in theological studies and discussions. In theology, we take the words or accounts, and we "add" explanations that are otherwise not able to be reached without some hard thinking.

The former, is "taking things at face value"; while the latter is rephrasing things, or rearranging information to facilitate understanding.

In this case, the most difficult of all, is the one that requires more interpretation. And it is also the most suspect of all.

According to most Trinitarians, even those who came up with the concept, the Trinity is the most difficult of all, and least logical of all. "It does not make sense," many would say. And to many, it even seems like the more proof (?) for its truthfulness. But to anyone who would like the Scriptures to speak on their own, the Trinity is far out of reach, and is not an option at all.

The Scriptures clearly state, there is One God, and Jesus is God's Son. By default, taking this at face value, we know that this means that God is the first, and Jesus is second to Him. There is no need for further interpretation of that, it is as clear cut as anything could be. Again, someone allowing the Scriptures to speak on their own, would take this position.

However, I am not so clear on whether or not a person would be un-saved for attempting to complicate this, and make it into some kind of "ungraspable" theory (the Trinity is "a mystery"). If it is "secret", then why did anyone ever learn it? If those who claim to know it, aren't able to understand it, then how could they claim it? It is quite an illogical answer, since anyone could claim anything about God, and say that because it is a mystery, then you must believe them.

What is interesting, too, is that Trinitarians will gladly take their stance that it is "a mystery", and claim that we are foolish in attempting to understand it. Yet, at the same time, when we say that it is different, they "ask us to show them with Scripture" where it is that it is found. Then they claim that "they don't understand" why it is that we believe so, therefore, our beliefs are false. Double standard, isn't it?

We can't ask for explanation, or understanding, but we have to provide explanation, and understanding. And even after we do provide it, we are rejected because they don't care?

Tinker Grey · Oct 25, 2003

Karaite said:
Well, Tinker, you pretty much understand what I said--so no misrepresentation there.

Good.

Now, I don't think LightBearer was trying to say that we need to understand God with perfection; but that we need to understand Jesus' role, in so far as salvation goes.

I think that that is a fair interpretation of the first two paragraphs of LightBearer's first post in this thread (#21).

However, the 2nd two muddy the waters a bit. Specifically,

LightBearer said:
This cleary states that our salvation definately depends on our knowing the True Nature of God the Father and Jesus Christ.

It strikes me that this is dangerously close to adding to the gospel of "Jesus Christ, and him crucified," or "Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead."

To believe that salvation requires that one accept the trinity (or predestination, or pre-tribism, or transubstantiation) distorts the gospel of the God's mercy -- that I am unworthy and God did something about it, therefore I owe him my allegiance.

The Scriptures clearly state, there is One God, and Jesus is God's Son. By default, taking this at face value, we know that this means that God is the first, and Jesus is second to Him. There is no need for further interpretation of that, it is as clear cut as anything could be. Again, someone allowing the Scriptures to speak on their own, would take this position.

It is for this reason that I don't fear for your salvation.

However, I am not so clear on whether or not a person would be un-saved for attempting to complicate this, and make it into some kind of "ungraspable" theory (the Trinity is "a mystery").

Do I understand that you are turning the tables? Inasmuch as I trust God's mercy on your behalf, be careful to show the same grace to those who disagree with you.

Salvation is not about correct understanding; it's about coming to God humbly on your knees.

If it is "secret", then why did anyone ever learn it? If those who claim to know it, aren't able to understand it, then how could they claim it? It is quite an illogical answer, since anyone could claim anything about God, and say that because it is a mystery, then you must believe them.

That is a good question.

I think it is simply man's eternal need to explain and understand. This is a good thing. The problem comes in when we feel the need to set man-made doctrine in stone. IIRC, the UPCs (modalists) consider those who disagree with as unsaved. They err by doing so.

This reminds me of an issue dispensationalism. IIRC, Dallas Theological Seminary -- a very good school, AFAIK -- requires that not only professors but students sign that they agree with dispensationalism as a condition of admission. As if this man-made doctrine were handed down from God on high!

The temerity of this!

What is interesting, too, is that Trinitarians will gladly take their stance that it is "a mystery", and claim that we are foolish in attempting to understand it. Yet, at the same time, when we say that it is different, they "ask us to show them with Scripture" where it is that it is found. Then they claim that "they don't understand" why it is that we believe so, therefore, our beliefs are false. Double standard, isn't it?

Yes, a double standard.

Yes, a mystery. I don't know that the trinitarian position is accurate, nor do I know that the true nature of God is knowable.

Nevertheless, I agree with your point -- one should acknowledge the mystery but not use it as an excuse to prevent thoughtful inquiry.

We can't ask for explanation, or understanding, but we have to provide explanation, and understanding. And even after we do provide it, we are rejected because they don't care?

Well ... I won't reject you or anyone on the basis of this topic. I won't judge your salvation at all.

But as for club membership, the founding members get to set the rules -- as in my example about the DAR in a previous post.

But I don't object to your lobbying for a change in the rules.

However, don't expect it to change 2000 yrs of Tradition.

God bless,
Tinker

Karaite · Oct 25, 2003

Do I understand that you are turning the tables? Inasmuch as I trust God's mercy on your behalf, be careful to show the same grace to those who disagree with you.

Salvation is not about correct understanding; it's about coming to God humbly on your knees.

Tinker,

I can't assure anyone that they will be saved, when to me, it seems like they are "changing" the Scriptures. I can say that I am open to the idea that we can work together, but I cannot rest assured of their salvation--especially in the subject of Jesus' nature and role. The message of salvation is highly dependant on the person of Christ, and when you change the person of Christ, it is a different Christ. That, to me, seems like a risk. And taking that into consideration, I have to admit that I cannot be sure of anyone's salvation, when the person of Christ is not understood with high similarity to what I see it like to be in Scripture.

I will not look down on anyone, but I will admit the problem that such beliefs will bring.

Tinker Grey · Oct 25, 2003

Karaite said:
Tinker,

I can't assure anyone that they will be saved, when to me, it seems like they are "changing" the Scriptures. I can say that I am open to the idea that we can work together, but I cannot rest assured of their salvation--especially in the subject of Jesus' nature and role. The message of salvation is highly dependant on the person of Christ, and when you change the person of Christ, it is a different Christ. That, to me, seems like a risk. And taking that into consideration, I have to admit that I cannot be sure of anyone's salvation, when the person of Christ is not understood with high similarity to what I see it like to be in Scripture.

I will not look down on anyone, but I will admit the problem that such beliefs will bring.

I am sorry to hear that you have the same problems with other's salvation as they have with yours.

If my understanding of Christ changes, my salvation does not change -- only my understanding. My salvation comes from trusting God, not trusting myself.

Tinker

LightBearer · Oct 25, 2003

Tinker Grey said:
Nevertheless, your previous post says that True Knowledge[sup](tm)[/sup] and Accurate Knowledge were necessary.

Can we know God totally? I don't think so.

Tinker

Accurate Knowledge does not mean Total Knowledge. It means that the Knowledge we have of God and Christ is accurate, truth not error, whether this knowledge is 50%, 90%, 10% or whatever, A child may have accurate knowledge of God but not as much knowledge as say an adult of many years.

Karaite · Oct 25, 2003

I am sorry to hear that you have the same problems with other's salvation as they have with yours.

If my understanding of Christ changes, my salvation does not change -- only my understanding. My salvation comes from trusting God, not trusting myself.

No, the problem is not mine, it is that person's problem. The fact that people are required to believe a certain way is not an invention of mine, but it is deeply rooted in our own religion. If that was not the case, then I would be as assured that a Hindu was as saved as a Muslim is, and as I am. But that is certainly not the case, at least that is not the case with those of us who take the Scriptures as the standard of Truth.

Even my own salvation is at stake, being that as a human being, I could also be wrong. I am not one of those who believes in "absolute" knowledge, so I will not claim that I am absolutely sure that I am saved. The only thing I can rest on is that I am doing things with reason, and hope that I will be saved. For it says that, those who succeed until the end, those will [then] be saved.

If a Muslim tells me that I am not saved, and claims that the Qu'ran indicates so. Should I argue with that? Well, I could argue that the Qu'ran contradicts itself, and that the Qu'ran at times would seem to give hope to Christians, but in the end, I could not argue that the Qu'ran definately gives me hope. I will most gladly admit that, if the Qu'ran is right, then I am wrong.

And that is the same with the Scriptures. If the Scriptures say one thing, and someone is trying to say something else, can I tell that someone that they are NEVERTHELESS right? No. Do they have a hope? Perhaps. But I can't assure them of it. As long as the Scriptures are not being obeyed correctly, there is never going to be assurance.

Peterson · Oct 31, 2003

After doing a serious study of the God of the Bible apart from what I had always been taught as a Lutheran, I had to reject the doctrine of the Trinity as an unbiblical concept that was conceived by the gentile church in an attempt to distance itself from the OT God of the Jews, and all other forms of Jewishness.

The God of the Bible is not a mystery, as Trinitarians claim. This is merely a subtrafuge used in an attempt to justify their twisting of scripture that clearly states that there is one God, the Father, and his son Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4:6; 1 Timothy 2:5). These two constitute the God family, but Christ himself says he is subject to the Father (John 14:28: 1 Corinthians 15:28).

The Holy Spirit is not a third member of a Trinity but is the mind of the Father given us through Jesus Christ (Romans 8:9-11;Galatians 2:20;Ephesians 3:17;Ephesians 4:6;Phil. 1:19; 2:5;Ephesians 4:6, and many more).

God is not a mystery. Jesus mentioned this to the woman at the well (John 4:21-24). The mystery enters in when Trinitarians find themselves incapable of handling the scriptures mentioned above, and then concocted the one-in three, three-in-one notion, of three coequal gods.

xsimmsx · Nov 4, 2003

May the Lord Jesus bless you all as you come into deeper understanding of what he has done for you.

I think the biggest problem with most believers in Jesus Christ is that they don't want to admit that they don't know everything. Which in itself is sinful. Another Huge problem is that because they don't know it all they start to redefine words in the bible to suit their limited understanding. If only all my brothers and sisters of the human race that seek to follow after Jesus would understand the great enigma, the awesome mystery of the number one. I have never seen the number one divided, subtracted, added to, multiplied and sliced and diced in any instance of my life as much as I have since I started this walk with Jesus. When you accept the fact that GOD CAN'T LIE not even about the number one, and that it is an absolute value then you would truly understand why the Jews were so hostile towards Jesus. When he made claims to be God even when he made the claim indirectly, the jews were ready to stone him. Why? Because to a jew in order to be God meant you had to be the Father. For to them there is only one God the Father. And he is a spirit not a man. But they failed to see through the vail of Jesus Flesh that hid the treasure of God. Even as Moses had to cover his face because of the Glory that was on him. Seeing they did not see and hearing they did not hear, neither did they understand. All of my brothers and sisters we should always seek TRUE understanding for without it we shall perish.

Peace and Blessing be multiplied unto all of you in the name of Jesus Christ whom died and rose again to leave his children an inheritance vastly superior to anything that we could possibly imagine.

Your Friend,
Joshua

Der Alte · Nov 5, 2003

Peterson said:
After doing a serious study of the God of the Bible apart from what I had always been taught as a Lutheran, I had to reject the doctrine of the Trinity as an unbiblical concept that was conceived by the gentile church in an attempt to distance itself from the OT God of the Jews, and all other forms of Jewishness.

The God of the Bible is not a mystery, as Trinitarians claim. This is merely a subtrafuge used in an attempt to justify their twisting of scripture that clearly states that there is one God, the Father, and his son Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4:6; 1 Timothy 2:5). These two constitute the God family, but Christ himself says he is subject to the Father (John 14:28: 1 Corinthians 15:28).

The Holy Spirit is not a third member of a Trinity but is the mind of the Father given us through Jesus Christ (Romans 8:9-11;Galatians 2:20;Ephesians 3:17;Ephesians 4:6;Phil. 1:19; 2:5;Ephesians 4:6, and many more).

God is not a mystery. Jesus mentioned this to the woman at the well (John 4:21-24). The mystery enters in when Trinitarians find themselves incapable of handling the scriptures mentioned above, and then concocted the one-in three, three-in-one notion, of three coequal gods.

Now all that may sound real good to those who are not informed and don't know any better. Just to let you in on a little secret the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did NOT originate with Christians and has absolutely nothing to do with the relationship between Christians and Judaism.

The Trinity originated in Judaism, before the Christian era. Check this article from The Jewish Encyclopedia, published in 1910.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Trinity-In the Zohar.

The Cabala, on the other hand, especially the Zohar, its fundamental work, was far less hostile to the dogma of the Trinity, since by its speculations regarding the father, the son, and the spirit it evolved a new trinity, and thus became dangerous to Judaism. Such terms as "mattronita," "body," "spirit," occur frequently (e.q., "Tazria'," ed. Polna, iii. 43b); so that Christians and converts like Knorr von Rosenroth, Reuchlin, and Rittangel found in the Zohar a confirmation of Christianity and especially of the dogma of the Trinity (Jellinek, "Die Kabbala," p. 250, Leipsic, 1844 [trans]. of Franck's "La Kabbale," Paris, 1843]). Reuchlin sought on the basis of the Cabala the words "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" in the second word of the Pentateuch, as well as in Ps. cxviii. 22 (ib. p. 10), while Johann Kemper, a convert, left in manuscript a work entitled "Matteh Mosheh," which treats in its third section of the harmony of the Zohar with the doctrine of the Trinity (Zettersteen, "Verzeichniss der Hebraischen und Aramaischen Handschriften zu Upsala," p. 16, Lund, 1900). The study of the Cabala led the Frankists to adopt Christianity; but the Jews have always regarded the doctrine of the Trinity as one irreconcilable with the spirit of the Jewish religion and with monotheism. See Christianity in Its Relation to Judaism; Polemics.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=338&letter=T

Jewish Encyclopedia-Zohar

They were led to this belief by the analogies existing between some of the teachings of the Zohar and certain of the Christian dogmas, as for instance the fall and redemption of man, and the dogma of the Trinity, . . .This [The Trinity] and also the other doctrines of Christian tendency that are found in the Zohar are now known to be much older than Christianity;

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=Z

Serapha · Nov 5, 2003

Karaite said:
Hi,

I am new here, and I want to know a little bit about the people here. The first thing I wanted to know is if I am going to be overwhelmingly out-numbered in here, as far as the subject of Christ's nature is.

I am non-trinitarian, and if the non-trintarians aboard could only say something to let me know that they are non-trinitarians, that would be good enough.

Thank you all!
Blessings!

Hi there!

You might be interested in a site at christiansareus.com. They support non-trinitarian postings.

~malaka~

ZeOvadhYahu · Jun 16, 2004

Der Alter said:
Now all that may sound real good to those who are not informed and don't know any better. Just to let you in on a little secret the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did NOT originate with Christians and has absolutely nothing to do with the relationship between Christians and Judaism.

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>>As a new member here I was curious of the various other posts made throughout the different threads here in the Unorthodox Theology community. I came across this one. It is an interesting one to me. As a new member here I should like to be "imformed" on these issue above.

Der Alter in your quoted texts above are you claiming that the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit originated with Judaism? Yes or No?

Which Sect of Judaism did it stem from Der Alter, if I may ask?

Did they are even Ha Sefer Zohar teach that One Being (God) was made up of Three Persons? If so, what was the name that each of these "Persons" were called according to Ha Sefer Zohar? In this I would like to be "informed" also please.

Der Alter said:
The Trinity originated in Judaism, before the Christian era. Check this article from The Jewish Encyclopedia, published in 1910.

Der Alter said:
Jewish Encyclopedia-Trinity-In the Zohar.

The Cabala, on the other hand, especially the Zohar, its fundamental work, was far less hostile to the dogma of the Trinity, since by its speculations regarding the father, the son, and the spirit it evolved a new trinity, and thus became dangerous to Judaism. Such terms as "mattronita," "body," "spirit," occur frequently (e.q., "Tazria'," ed. Polna, iii. 43b); so that Christians and converts like Knorr von Rosenroth, Reuchlin, and Rittangel found in the Zohar a confirmation of Christianity and especially of the dogma of the Trinity (Jellinek, "Die Kabbala," p. 250, Leipsic, 1844 [trans].

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> So the dogma of the Trinity was based on "SPECULATIONS"?
Speculations from what exactly Der Alter? Could you elaborate for me on this issue? What exactly does the word "Speculation" mean?

In the above quote it says that "in the Zohar a confirmation of Christianity and especially of the dogma of the Trinity."

Does this mean that you, Der Alter feel that the Occultic Mysticism Book of Splendor is a true legtimate confirmation of your own Trinitarian beliefs? (This is a question)

I would like to ask you, would you consider Ha Sefer Zohar to be an Inspired Book like that of the Bible itself? If no, then why? Please explain.

Der Alter said:
They were led to this belief by the analogies existing between some of the teachings of the Zohar and certain of the Christian dogmas, as for instance the fall and redemption of man, and the dogma of the Trinity, . . .This [The Trinity] and also the other doctrines of Christian tendency that are found in the Zohar are now known to be much older than Christianity;

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> Is that really the case?
So, Zohar is much older than Christianity?

Could you please tell me what date the book of Zohar was fully composed? Who was the Author of this book?

If infact, your "inform" ation is correct above then we should have no problem finding the teachings of Zohar throughout the Hebrew (Old Testament) Sacred Passages of Scripture right?

Could you "Inform" me as to where in the Bible I can find the words- Sefirot and Sefirotim please?

Since you seem to prescribe to the teachings of Zohar as being that of a Trinity consisting of The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit could you please tell me the names/titles of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and what their specific roles where in the Zoharic teachings please?

I certainly look forward to your answers to these questions. I ask them out of sincereity and also because I do not wish to be viewed as one of "those who are not informed and don't know any better."

I have notice that you have referenced this material before without really explaining anything of it in depth from yourself. I felt because you continually have been seen bringing it up that perhaps you were weel informed of it and it's material. It is my wish to be as informed as you on this matter. I look forward to whatever aid you can provide by means of your own personal knowledge and view of this issue.

With respect and interest in this subject I await patiently,
Zeh'OvadhYahu

Debi1967 · Jun 16, 2004

Trinitarians, themselves, have been arguing amongst themselves about the definition of who God is in trinitarian terms. Athanasianism has won out over modalism in the traditonal historic church, but even here, Roman Catholics state that the trinity operates only in and through the Roman church.

Pretty bold statement don't you think? If you mean that we believe that the CC is the Visible Church and that it is His earthly Home then you are right...but we acknowledge all of our brothers and sisters In Christ....

Catholic, Orthodoxy, or Protestant....

We are though Trinitarian in our beliefs and not Arian that is correct....

Pax Christi
Debi

Debi1967 · Jun 16, 2004

ZeOvadhYahu said:
ZeOvadhYahu:~~>>As a new member here I was curious of the various other posts made throughout the different threads here in the Unorthodox Theology community. I came across this one. It is an interesting one to me. As a new member here I should like to be "imformed" on these issue above.

Der Alter in your quoted texts above are you claiming that the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit originated with Judaism? Yes or No?

Which Sect of Judaism did it stem from Der Alter, if I may ask?

Did they are even Ha Sefer Zohar teach that One Being (God) was made up of Three Persons? If so, what was the name that each of these "Persons" were called according to Ha Sefer Zohar? In this I would like to be "informed" also please.

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> So the dogma of the Trinity was based on "SPECULATIONS"?
Speculations from what exactly Der Alter? Could you elaborate for me on this issue? What exactly does the word "Speculation" mean?

In the above quote it says that "in the Zohar a confirmation of Christianity and especially of the dogma of the Trinity."

Does this mean that you, Der Alter feel that the Occultic Mysticism Book of Splendor is a true legtimate confirmation of your own Trinitarian beliefs? (This is a question)

I would like to ask you, would you consider Ha Sefer Zohar to be an Inspired Book like that of the Bible itself? If no, then why? Please explain.

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> Is that really the case?
So, Zohar is much older than Christianity?

Could you please tell me what date the book of Zohar was fully composed? Who was the Author of this book?

If infact, your "inform" ation is correct above then we should have no problem finding the teachings of Zohar throughout the Hebrew (Old Testament) Sacred Passages of Scripture right?

Could you "Inform" me as to where in the Bible I can find the words- Sefirot and Sefirotim please?

Since you seem to prescribe to the teachings of Zohar as being that of a Trinity consisting of The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit could you please tell me the names/titles of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and what their specific roles where in the Zoharic teachings please?

I certainly look forward to your answers to these questions. I ask them out of sincereity and also because I do not wish to be viewed as one of "those who are not informed and don't know any better."

I have notice that you have referenced this material before without really explaining anything of it in depth from yourself. I felt because you continually have been seen bringing it up that perhaps you were weel informed of it and it's material. It is my wish to be as informed as you on this matter. I look forward to whatever aid you can provide by means of your own personal knowledge and view of this issue.

With respect and interest in this subject I await patiently,
Zeh'OvadhYahu

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Now you are haggling to get out of something because you asked for the info and it has been given....now that it has been given your only choice is to attack what even the Jewish Encyclopedia says...now that is ludicrous....

You are making Der Alter run in circles after things that you know are very hard to research...and what you have failed to tell is that you are a scholar in all of this which gives you the advantage to begin with....

Do you want to know what I think I think that you think that if you keep challenging him he will go away, and if you keep sounding as though you have the upper hand then others will take it as though he has been defeated by you. Instead what they are not seeing is that most of the questions you are asking are truly useless aren't they? OH And before you answer that remember be truthful....

Debi

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