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Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT...

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James Wilson

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A botanist being quoted as an authority on geology. How did I guess? Well, I guessed because it is pretty much par for the course with creationists.

So says the expert who opined, "No mention of his sister in Genesis. Cousin? That's even better. Now there is an aunt and uncle to materialise out of nowhere."

Now you're an expert on the Bible? If you were, you'd realize there's probably billions of people not mentioned in the Bible. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

What about the poor guy who got his degree but couldn't work anywhere but a patent office because he offended all his teachers and couldn't get a recommend. Should we dismiss the work of Einstein or let the work stand on its own merit? (This specifically refers to Einstein's seminal work published while still working as a lowly clerk in a patent office).

Historically many people have contributed to science while in professions outside science. Nowadays multiple expertises are still drawn upon to advance science.
 
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lesliedellow

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Well that was weeks ago on another thread, and, in any case, the point still stands. According to creationists, there most certainly weren't billions of people on Earth at the time. There was just Adam, Eve and their kids. Besides which, you won't win any arguments by trying to distract from the issue with irrelevancies.



In the first place Einstein was qualified as a physicist. His opinions on geology probably would not have been worth a great deal. In the second place, an Einstein comes along once every two or three centuries.
 
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James Wilson

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Dr. Hurd: You are straining at the gnat and swallowing the camel!


If the scientific method has failed us in the area of scientific dating, we need to fix it, not deny it!


Instead, you set up a straw man. (For those unfamiliar with this debate technique, a straw man is a false restatement of the opponent’s position that is easily refuted). I know enough about assumptions for population estimation from Adam and Eve to the Flood. They do NOT start with a billion people in the time of Eve! That’s obviously incorrect, so don’t base your refutation on this red herring. In fact, just disregard my comment about the sister altogether. I only cited your reference to Nature to segue into my debate on the 4.5 billion year old earth.


Secondly, the argument against the 4.5 billion year old earth is based upon statistics, a class that ANY SCIENTIST who handles data should be familiar with, NOT complex geological thinking that would cause a botanist any trouble at all. A botanist can easily see statistical abuse, so can you.


Address the real issue, the shakiness of the 4.5 billion year age of the Earth! Please include why the 4.5 billion year old date was completely acceptable but not the 6 billion, which, using the same techniques, should be equally valid or invalid. That is, the two techniques should both be right or both be wrong.
 
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lesliedellow

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I used to have a botanist for a parish priest, and he admitted to being useless at maths.

Without access to the original article in Nature, it is difficult to assess whether he has a clue what he is talking about or not, but I strongly suspect that it falls into the usual category, when creationists cite somebody like a computer scientist as being an expert on something like biology.
 
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Tree of Life

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Where do you suppose that the OT discusses matters relevant to evolution?
 
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James Wilson

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Well, Mendel also chose the religious path like your parish priest and he made quite an enduring contribution to the science of genetics. Although he had scientific training, he had trouble passing tests.

Thomas Kuhn in his seminal work, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, pointed out that the greatest scientific progress comes from paradigm shifts. Such shifts are usually preceded by years of the old paradigm supporters hanging on by their fingernails, constantly patching the old theory and ignoring any new data or ideas. A wise man said, "Science progresses one funeral at a time." This is a reference to the hardened old timers who hate new ideas, but are in positions of power to prevent others from profiting from the new ideas as well.

I see from the disrespect you have for creationists and your quote from Niels Bohr at the bottom of your post that you don't like mixing religion and science. You seem to respect Einstein, though. And he said 'religious' things like the following (paraphrased):

In countering Heisenberg's Uncertainty theorem and the resulting changes to today's quantum mechanics: "God does not play dice with the universe." (This is the popular paraphrase because his actual words are less crisp and more wordy, though the intent is preserved in the paraphrase).

He also said, "If you have difficulty solving a hard problem, imagine how you would have done it if you were God. Then see if He did it that way." In order for people to follow Einstein's advice here, they would have to believe that God left evidence for them to examine.

He also wrote something like the following: "A scientist's search for truth is like a child walking into a great library containing books explaining all the mysteries of the universe. And the scientist/child can peer into these books if he listens for God to speak." This advice is what Einstein followed when he opposed Heisenberg, hoping to delay a snap judgment in order to find an more elegant and accurate theory. Einstein lost that argument, probably the most important and unfortunate loss in the twentieth Century.

Contrary to Bohr's statement, Einstein found a way to grasp religion and science in a way that made him arguably one of the best, most effective and smartest scientists of the twentieth century. And the top scientist to believe in Intelligent Design.
 
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James Wilson

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Usually when I speak about this side of Einstein, some 'scientist' dismisses the whole argument with the straw man: "Einstein didn't believe in the God of the Bible, you know!" No, he was a deist, but his words still stand. Let me relieve you of the trouble of bringing up a straw man similar to this one.
 
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lesliedellow

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He lost the argument for the simple reason that he couldn't come up with an alternative or better theory.


Contrary to Bohr's statement, Einstein found a way to grasp religion and science in a way that made him arguably one of the best, most effective and smartest scientists of the twentieth century. And the top scientist to believe in Intelligent Design.

If Einstein was anything, he was a pantheist. He explicitly said that he didn't believe in a personal God.
 
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James Wilson

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He lost the argument for the simple reason that he couldn't come up with an alternative or better theory.




If Einstein was anything, he was a pantheist. He explicitly said that he didn't believe in a personal God.

You surprised me. Even though I warned people that someone would come up with a throwaway comment and ignore the amazing accomplishments of Einstein, driven by his faith in God, you went ahead and came up with a throwaway comment. You are bold.
 
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lesliedellow

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You surprised me. Even though I warned people that someone would come up with a throwaway comment and ignore the amazing accomplishments of Einstein, driven by his faith in God, you went ahead and came up with a throwaway comment. You are bold.

Einstein was at most a pantheist. End of story.
 
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lesliedellow

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And you repeated the throwaway comment. Very bold.

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." (Albert Einstein)
 
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James Wilson

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Where do you suppose that the OT discusses matters relevant to evolution?

I believe in creation, but I can point out where the NT talks about evolution.

2Peter 3:3 gives a warning, "...scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts."

And what do they say in the next verse? "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."

Enter Uniformitarianism, made popular by Lyell: All mechanisms in geology progress at the same rate throughout all time. Additional assumptions were made to expand this: No extraterrestrial events shall influence the science of geology. (Interpret that as God is not allowed). A second assumption was: No catastrophes. (Miracles could be interpreted as catastrophes, for their purposes.

[A brief aside here. These two assumptions blew up in the faces of geologists when they opposed the Alvarez father-son team who postulated that the age of the dinosaurs was ended by the meteorite that landed, forming the Yucatan Peninsula. The geologists opposed the progress of science for 10 years, holding their precious 150 year old assumptions to be more important than progress. What was their problem? The meteorite was extraterrestrial and catastrophic! Two precious assumptions destroyed by scientific progress]

Peter goes on in 3:5 and 3:6 -- "For this they willfully forget: ...the world that then existed, being flooded by water."

Sure enough, the proud and arrogant evolutionists acted out as predicted by God almost 2,000 years before. They claimed that Noah's Flood was actually a series of small floods of limited extent all over the world! Why did they care? Because the fossil record could be created in the exact order it is, by Noah's Flood covering the highest mountain. Seashells and bottom dwelling creatures buried first, then larger fish, finally ending with horses and men who could delay their burial until the last moment, due to their greater land speed. Settling and hydrodynamic conditions make minor adjustments in level where bodies laid. Because this happened approximately 6,000 years ago, the fossil record is merely a tale of what animals perished in the Flood, not a record of the progress of evolution.

Evolutionists had to erase the competing mechanism from people's minds, as the scientists followed the divine plan.

And why is it important whether we had one flood or many? Look at 2Peter 3:7 -- "But the heavens and the earth which now exist are kept in store by the same word, reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Noah's Flood (one flood) is God's warning that just as He once destroyed the earth by water, because of the great wickedness of men, He shall again destroy the earth by fire. For the same reason.

But if evolutionists teach many floods, other men, women and children will miss the warning, "Just as water once destroyed the earth, it will again be destroyed by fire."

Here you have in the NT two theorems of evolution: Not one flood but many and not catastrophes from without (outside the earth) and within, but Uniformitarianism.

When I pointed this out in another post, a dull-witted evolutionist immediately pointed out, "Ha! Nobody believes in Uniformitarianism anymore!" So what? God still predicted two millennia ago that they would, for a time. There seems to be no limit to the throwaway comments and straw-man arguments when scientists are forced to consider eternal judgment.
 
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James Wilson

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Did I say anywhere that Einstein's God was personal? Einstein would have had to turn away his mistress who regularly came to visit him, giving the lusty man's wife a box of chocolates for the payment of her husband's services. Einstein liked the idea of a God, but not One Who judged the guilty.

But Einstein did believe in a deity who found a way to direct the steps of patient scientists. Otherwise, why would Einstein have made the quotes that I gave above?
 
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lesliedellow

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You said that Einstein was a supporter of ID, and ID, by definition, presupposes an intelligent designer.
 
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James Wilson

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You said that Einstein was a supporter of ID, and ID, by definition, presupposes an intelligent designer.

I tried in this writeup to understand Einstein's attitude toward God, using quotes from him (all referenced by source). Einstein tries to be coy, describing the actions of God but not any more. As you read the words of Einstein below, ask yourself, Who ordered this universe, Who wrote the books, Who reveals the secrets of the books to the seeker? Who is the "mysterious force that sways the constellations"? I think, rather than saying God does not exist, Einstein says he sees the footprints, but knows nothing more. But it's clear he believed in an intelligent design in the universe, and hints at the "mysterious force".

Einstein believed in an ordered universe: (“The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written”)
That Man’s most brilliant mind is weak: (“We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations”)
Therefore we must stay humble: (“The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God”)
And seek simple solutions… or none at all… in preference to complexity: (“If you can’t explain your science to a child, you don’t understand it” Also, take a look at Einstein’s letters sent to physicist Max Born: “You believe in a God who plays dice, and I in complete law and order in a world which objectively exists, and which I in a wildly speculative way, am trying to capture. I firmly believe, but I hope that someone will discover a more realistic way, or rather a more tangible basis than it has been my lot to find. Even the great initial success of the quantum theory does not make me believe in the fundamental dice game, although I am well aware that some of our younger colleagues interpret this as a consequence of senility” [25])
I think Einstein’s preference for simplicity and humility was not a weakness, but a faith in the nonbiblical Deity that bequeathed this simplicity to His ordered universe.
In view of the latitude given to Einstein, scientists of today should allow a different worldview than those who want to outlaw God from science (I’m not asking that God MUST be considered by all scientists… but merely be allowed for those who choose Him).
Einstein theorized some truly great predictions (or theories) when he was accorded the freedom to assume a divinely ordered universe.
(All the quotes in this post, except the one of teaching a child, are based upon en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Albert_Einstein#Personal_God_and_the_afterlife, thanks Ronan W. for pointing out this url)
To repeat, I’m not asking evolutionists to change their paradigm for quantum mechanics, but to allow others to use the Einstein Universe without ridicule.
 
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James Wilson

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He lost the argument for the simple reason that he couldn't come up with an alternative or better theory.

lesliedellow states that Einstein lost the argument over the Uncertainty Theory for the simple reason that he couldn't come up with an alternative or better theory. I think there's more to it, maybe some clever scientific cheating (see below):

In the May 15, 1935 issue of Physical Review Albert Einstein co-authored a paper with his two postdoctoral research associates at the Institute for Advanced Study, Boris Podolsky and Nathan Rosen entitled “Can Quantum Mechanical Description of Physical Reality Be Considered Complete?” An evolutionist designated this paper as “one of the most important 'wrong' papers in the history of science!”
Although the lead author of the paper, Einstein did not review it before publication. As a result, he immediately objected to the published paper, presenting his own version several times over the years. Perhaps his most concise presentation came out in Schilpp 1949, p. 682:
“[T]he paradox forces us to relinquish one of the following two assertions:
(1) the description by means of the psi-function (or wave equation) is complete
(2) the real states of spatially separate objects are independent of each other.”
In Item 1 above the wave equation was forced to apply probability to individual particles rather than groups. Item 2 would prevent taking two quantum-entangled particles and separating them by a distance. If Item 2 were false, you could manipulate one of these particles into a given state, and the distant one would instantaneously represent that state! Thus, we could have information travel faster-than-the-speed-of-light between the particles. Some have even suggested DNA information traveling in this way, producing a faster-than-light transporter like Scotty used on the Enterprise spaceship.
One glaring weakness in this is… Indeterminism was adopted during a time when physical measuring instruments were significantly larger than the particles being measured. At that time no one could conceive of measuring these tiny particles without ‘banging into them with the instrument’. Since then, many ways have been determined to measure such particles indirectly, so they are not impacted at all by the measurement. So, why is science still accepting a theory that draws its strength from the era of clumsy instruments? Good question.
With such reasonable support for Einstein, how did he lose the debate?

The acclaimed and ‘definitive’ rebuttal of Einstein’s argument was first presented by Bohr. plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-epr/ summarized the weaknesses in Bohr’s rebuttal of EPR (the paper that started this debate; it stands for the first letters of the paper ghosted by Einstein's assistants). “Briefly, at points BOHR APPEARS TO SUPPORT EINSTEIN’S VIEW.”

For decades scientists remained confused about the winner of the debate:

"Even though the Bell theorem does not rule out locality conclusively, IT SHOULD CERTAINLY MAKE ONE WARY of assuming it. On the other hand, since Einstein's exploding gunpowder argument (or Schrödinger's cat) supports incompleteness without assuming locality, ONE SHOULD BE WARY OF ADOPTING THE OTHER HORN OF THE DILLEMMA, affirming that the quantum state descriptions are complete and ‘therefore’ that the theory is nonlocal. It may well turn out that BOTH HORNS NEED TO BE REJECTED: that the state functions do not provide a complete description and that the theory is also nonlocal (although possibly still separable; see Winsberg and Fine 2003)." -- Quoted from “The Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Argument in Quantum Theory,” first published Mon May 10, 2004; substantive revision Wed Aug 5, 2009, also at http:// plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-epr/).

The uncertainty over the debate embarrassed the Quantum Physics Establishment to the point that they posthumously put words into Bohr’s mouth, as evidenced by the following:
“But because Bohr's view on complementarity has wrongly been associated with positivism and subjectivism, much confusion still seems to stick to the Copenhagen interpretation. Don Howard (2004) argues, however, that what is commonly known as the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, regarded as representing a unitary Copenhagen point of view, differs significantly from Bohr's complementarity interpretation. He holds that "the Copenhagen interpretation is an invention of the mid-1950s, for which HEISENBERG IS CHIEFLY RESPONSIBLE, [and that] various other physicists and philosophers, including Bohm, Feyerabend, Hanson, and Popper, hav[e] further PROMOTED THE INVENTION IN THE SERVICE OF THEIR OWN PHILOSOPHICAL AGENDAS." (p. 669) (from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-copenhagen/)
(Hang on, I truly am going somewhere with this! More than just criticizing Bohr and Heisenberg)
I think it’s time for a round of applause for Einstein, who achieved his intent to make the God he believed in a center of strenuous, scientific debate for 86 years. A debate that not even Einstein himself could solve… making his assertion all the more telling… that His God created a universe full of mysteries in order that we scientists should remain humble in light of them.
Certainly our job is NOT to continue the second greatest indoctrination of the last Century (probabilistic particles in quantum physics) … NOT to keep patching the wilting, hot-air bag of Quantum Mechanics with another questionable assumption… certainly NOT to continue publishing the exulted implications of each assumption (“teleportation, faster-than-light communication”)… AND, perhaps the most compassionate, NOT to keep resurrecting Bohr’s argument posthumously for another patch job (making Bohr say something he never did “in service of their own philosophical agendas”)… Just allow the poor guy at rest-in-peace.
The greater travesty of justice is this: Heisenberg deceitfully erased Einstein’s work for being a deist and therefore his peers for all time could claim that there’s no God in science (by assumption), construing Science to prove there is no God! (that’s circular reasoning, in case you missed it). The real truth is that science NEITHER proves nor disproves God (get over it and let’s go on!)
 
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lesliedellow

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I don't know where you got that from, but it is nonsense. I didn't read all of it, but apart from anything else, there is no way you could make measurements on a particle without energy transfer being involved. How else do you think you are going to get information out of the system?

Also, quantum entanglement does not allow information to be transferred.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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That's just dumb. If one is unable to use the U/Th method to form a date, that does NOT logically mean one cannot use the U/U method to form a date.

It's not a contradiction to say one method worked while the other couldn't be done, for whatever reason.
 
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James Wilson

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You said that Einstein was a supporter of ID, and ID, by definition, presupposes an intelligent designer.

Einstein was somewhat unclear in his concept of God:

The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
(Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)


Yet, in seeming contradiction he said, ”What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of "humility." This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism.” (Albert Einstein)

In one statement he praised the mystical aspect of his faith (I'm using this noun very loosely) and condemns it in the next. This may be due to these statements being issued at different times in his life. For instance, in one statement he said that the actions of the Christian church being the only one that would stand up to Hitler from within Germany had changed his attitude toward the Christian church. Later on he said he couldn't justify the statement.

He also said he admired the Jesus of the Bible, but not His people (that is, the Christian churches and their actions).

But, getting back to the comment you made about his belief in an intelligent designer, Einstein said,
"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details." (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202). The statement, "I want to know his thoughts", seems to speak of a Being Who has thoughts, not the New Age god-in-every-thing.

Pantheism is defined as either believing in many gods or a doctrine that identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God. Einstein said he wanted to know the God who created the universe (or world), not the god who is the universe.

I know you label him as a pantheist, apparently so you can deduce other things about his faith because of this label. But I think he's too random and diffuse for such a label. I don't think he had a 'talking papers' with him at all times, but just spoke as he felt on a given day. This might explain the retraction of his respect for the Christian church in Germany.
 
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