Herding Goats

LiturgyInDMinor · Jul 16, 2009

What do leaders do? They do their job. IN the most strict and biblical way possible.
In my church, congregational disagreement hasn't happened. The last time we had a proper church disciplinary happening...our pastor presented biblical evidence for the dismissal and well that was that...no one could refute him.

TimRout · Jul 16, 2009

NRB said:
What do leaders do? They do their job. IN the most strict and biblical way possible.
In my church, congregational disagreement hasn't happened. The last time we had a proper church disciplinary happening...our pastor presented biblical evidence for the dismissal and well that was that...no one could refute him.

In a context where the congregation refuse to take action (for whatever reason), is it your view that the leaders should resign?

LiturgyInDMinor · Jul 16, 2009

TimRout said:
In a context where the congregation refuse to take action (for whatever reason), is it your view that the leaders should resign?

Yes.
If you are talking in the context of the entire church knows that so and so is being very deviant and non repentive, and the pastor calls this person out(biblically) and the congregation is against it.
My church the pastor takes control of it in a biblical fashion. There is no vote regarding church discipline.
We recently had a situation where we booted someone...I say "we" loosely...our pastor after 6 months of no repentance from this person, remanded his membership.(I assume he had counsel from the entire staff but he never said). He told the congregation in general what was going on...but there was no congregational "vote" about it. Noone was directly involved accept the accuser and the staff and the "offender".

mont974x4 · Jul 16, 2009

In the rare event that the congregation subverts the disciplinary action, I would keep going. Possibly spend some time teaching on the sin issue involved, and keep going until the people realized what a serious issue it is. I would also try to counsel the offending member.

Eventually one of two things will happen. The sinner would forced out, or I would be forced out.....unless of course the offender decided to repent.

Of course, we do have Paul's example of taking the matter into his own hands in 1 Cor 5. I would say that was a last resort, and would likely precipitate the two options I mentioned above.

I have not seen that happen when a real sin issue was involved, although I do know it happens.

mont974x4 · Jul 16, 2009

TimRout said:
In a context where the congregation refuse to take action (for whatever reason), is it your view that the leaders should resign?

I see no reason for the pastor to resign. Unless he feels led by God because it is obvious that he cannot lead the congregation. It would take quite a bit to get to that point. Otherwise, I would suggest the man is weak and needs to find another vocation altogether.

LiturgyInDMinor · Jul 16, 2009

Honestly I don't believe a man of God has hope in a church were the congregation blatantly allows DELIBERATE and knowing sin in the midst of it. IMHO it would be a losing battle in the end. The flock would be a lost cause IMHO.
Have you ever owned a real live goat??? the animal that is.....lol...like I had to be specific about that...anywho..they are HARD HEADED and honestly unchangeable when it comes to behavior...personal experience. "Goat Churches" are a lost causes in the end no matter how hard one can try to change and teach them...my opinion alone here. That's not judgemental that's a fact(about goats that is).

TimRout · Jul 16, 2009

NRB said:
Honestly I don't believe a man of God has hope in a church were the congregation blatantly allows DELIBERATE and knowing sin in the midst of it. IMHO it would be a losing battle in the end. The flock would be a lost cause IMHO.
Have you ever owned a real live goat??? the animal that is.....lol...like I had to be specific about that...anywho..they are HARD HEADED and honestly unchangeable when it comes to behavior...personal experience. "Goat Churches" are a lost cause in the end no matter how hard one can try to change and teach them...my opinion alone here. That's not judgemental that's a fact(about goats that is).

Agreed, provided we define "goat" as "reprobate".

LiturgyInDMinor · Jul 16, 2009

TimRout said:
Agreed, provided we define "goat" as "reprobate".

Agreed...because any congregation that "let's reprobates slide" are reprobate unto themselves as a whole.

TimRout · Jul 16, 2009

NRB said:
Agreed...because any congregation that "let's reprobates slide" are reprobate unto themselves as a whole.

Where we run into difficulty as Pastors, is in discerning between the as-yet-unsaved sheep, and the true goat. I have yet to discover a fool proof method of discerning this vital truth. Thus I often stay too long in the goat pen.

LiturgyInDMinor · Jul 16, 2009

Pastors are required to keep the sheep safe so to speak right?
I'm not saying to neglect the goats either. Although in physical reality it is impossible for a goat to turn into a sheep, or leafy tare into a grain of wheat.

BUT, the discernment comes from God overall so I bet you do just fine.

TimRout · Jul 16, 2009

NRB said:
Pastors are required to keep the sheep safe so to speak right?
I'm not saying to neglect the goats either. Although in physical reality it is impossible for a goat to turn into a sheep, or leafy tare into a grain of wheat.

BUT, the discernment comes from God overall so I bet you do just fine.

Very gracious of you brother. Thank-you.

In truth I do not believe it is given unto man to make such distinctions; we cannot know the destiny of another person's soul. That said, you're right. By the grace of God, those who never truly belonged to Him have generally made their way out of our church over time.

pastor_chris · Jul 25, 2009

I am encouraged on one hand because so many here see the problem that we face is an unregenerate membership. I am also frustrated to no end because this means that in order for us to grow our churches God's way we have to find some real sheep first and maybe even remove some goats. I have found as a Baptist pastor that most of our leaders are goats. Until the church has real godly overseers having a regenerate membership is wishful thinking and a pipedream! In our church we just lost two deacons who tried to run me off. Both men were goats. Since they have left our church is truly blessed! But now we need to get serious about the lost.

I just wish I had started with a saved leadership core!

TimRout · Jul 25, 2009

pastor_chris said:
I am encouraged on one hand because so many here see the problem that we face is an unregenerate membership. I am also frustrated to no end because this means that in order for us to grow our churches God's way we have to find some real sheep first and maybe even remove some goats. I have found as a Baptist pastor that most of our leaders are goats. Until the church has real godly overseers having a regenerate membership is wishful thinking and a pipedream! In our church we just lost two deacons who tried to run me off. Both men were goats. Since they have left our church is truly blessed! But now we need to get serious about the lost.

I hear you brother. Of course, it's a two edged sword. Many of our Baptist churches are congregational, and a regenerated leadership can find themselves getting voted out of office by an unregenerated membership. I've been in the Baptist Pastorate for 16 years now, and I'm quite convinced that Jesus is the only good thing about it.

pastor_chris said:
I just wish I had started with a saved leadership core!

Well said. Have you considered planting your own church? I'm on my third charge and it's also my first church plant. The first two were well established works with far too many goats chewing on the furnature. When one starts from scratch with full authority to hand pick the leadership, it sure helps things to stay straight and true.

pastor_chris · Jul 25, 2009

Tim,

Your suggestion of a "church start" is a great idea but we are actually in many ways a "restart" after the conflict we endured. We lost enough members and tithers that in many ways we are starting over. In my 8 years as a pastor this is the first time that I have actually been "the pastor". It has taken two years but I am now leading a church for really the first time. We are going through Simple church by Thom Ranier and we are developing a discipleship strategy to develop people and build a regenerate membership, I guess you'd call that building the church (ekklesia). Although I know that Jesus builds the church we just partner with Him in the work.

If I ever move on a church plant is defintely something I'd consider though. Goats eat everything, and some are actually wolves and they eat the sheep!

TimRout · Jul 25, 2009

pastor_chris said:
Tim,

Your suggestion of a "church start" is a great idea but we are actually in many ways a "restart" after the conflict we endured. We lost enough members and tithers that in many ways we are starting over. In my 8 years as a pastor this is the first time that I have actually been "the pastor". It has taken two years but I am now leading a church for really the first time. We are going through Simple church by Thom Ranier and we are developing a discipleship strategy to develop people and build a regenerate membership, I guess you'd call that building the church (ekklesia). Although I know that Jesus builds the church we just partner with Him in the work.

If I ever move on a church plant is definitely something I'd consider though. Goats eat everything, and some are actually wolves and they eat the sheep!

Spot on, Chris!

Indeed, my first two "established" churches were intended to be replants, but I was never able to eliminate a sufficient number of the goats. And even those that didn't grow fangs were nevertheless capable of lowering their heads and ramming my poor sheep near to death. Your efforts are worthy. It sounds like the Lord has cleansed the people of the poison and given you a chance to do some serious ministry. I'm adding you to my prayer list.

Speaking of ἐκκλησίᾳ, you're free to use Greek fonts here, but you have to copy them in from an external source since they haven't given us a Gk option in the font menu.

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