Hemlock

rturner76 · Sep 25, 2023

I have been watching a show on an Amazon British channel called "Mr Brown." In the show I am watching now, a guy has committed suicide with Hemlock the same way Socrates did. I guess it is a slow acting poison and one can be coherant for a couple days before the paralysis overtakes the heart and lungs.

"Father Brown" has solved the mystery of the poisoning and offers the dying man confession. My question is, does confession absole one from their mortal sin of suicide the same way as if it were any other mortal sin? I'm not asking so I can copy this act but I wonder how absolution would work in that case where one has premeditated their own death and still can't stop the dominoes from falling meaning is there still absolution when ne commits a premeditated sin that can't be stopped?

We are instructed as fallible humans to not judge others but from what we know about the Father's vengance and forgiveness, how would one know which would be more consistant with what we know about God's will?

Apologies if this is a dumb question but I felt like I could learn something of the mind of God.

Michie · Sep 26, 2023

rturner76 said:
I have been watching a show on an Amazon British channel called "Mr Brown." In the show I am watching now, a guy has committed suicide with Hemlock the same way Socrates did. I guess it is a slow acting poison and one can be coherant for a couple days before the paralysis overtakes the heart and lungs.

"Father Brown" has solved the mystery of the poisoning and offers the dying man confession. My question is, does confession absole one from their mortal sin of suicide the same way as if it were any other mortal sin? I'm not asking so I can copy this act but I wonder how absolution would work in that case where one has premeditated their own death and still can't stop the dominoes from falling meaning is there still absolution when ne commits a premeditated sin that can't be stopped?

We are instructed as fallible humans to not judge others but from what we know about the Father's vengance and forgiveness, how would one know which would be more consistant with what we know about God's will?

Apologies if this is a dumb question but I felt like I could learn something of the mind of God.

I think absolution would work the same as it always would. I have read many regret the act of suicide while they are in the process of waiting to die. This would be the same except that there is nothing anyone could do about the poisoning. I imagine it would be the same as a person on their death bed. Confession, absolution, and last rites. Probably not much help to you but those are my thoughts.

Bob Crowley · Sep 26, 2023

I lifted teh following quote from this link - What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about suicide and God’s mercy (June 12, 2020)

The Catechism of the Catholic Church addresses suicide in a section called “Respect for Human Life.” While identifying suicide as a mortal sin—an action a person knows is of grave matter but willingly commits anyway—the catechism also recognizes the decreased culpability of the person in certain circumstances and the hope for God’s mercy.

The Church also now allows a funeral Mass and burial in a Catholic cemetery for those who take their own life.

The catechism states:

• “Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of” (#2280).

• “Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God” (#2281).

• “If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law. Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide” (#2282).

“We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways know to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for people who have taken their own lives” (#2283). †

Generally speaking people only commit suicide when they're mentally ill, or under some form of acute anguish. They don't do it in an emotional vacuum. I presume in the "Father Brown" episode you were watching, the bloke who had taken hemlock was under stress for some reason.

I think it's risky but God is the final judge.

I'd only been a Christian for about 6 months when the eldest son of my (Presbyterian ex-Methodist) pastor and his wife committed suicide. He had manic-depression very badly from what I gather. I never got to know him well as he was difficult to talk to, although I got to know the rest of the family. Although there was one other brother who moved away not long after for other reasons. They all did very well in their respective fields and all were and still are committed Christians.

I can't help but think the devil put that family to the test (with God's permission eg. Job). With their Protestant "heaven or hell" outlook I suppose they may have thought he was "lost", but I don't think so. I think he might have gone to Purgatory. He certainly had "diminished responsibility" due to his mental illness, and according to one of his brothers when he was "down", he was "really down!"

It's in God's hands in the end. He knows the full story - we don't.

As an addendum the "Father Brown" TV shows are based (very) loosely on GK Chesterton's "Father Brown" stories. I've got (or had) one of his books on my shelves somewhere. Chesterton wrote between 1910 and 1936, whereas the TV shows are set in the early 1960's as far as I can tell.

chevyontheriver · Sep 26, 2023

rturner76 said:
I have been watching a show on an Amazon British channel called "Mr Brown." In the show I am watching now, a guy has committed suicide with Hemlock the same way Socrates did. I guess it is a slow acting poison and one can be coherant for a couple days before the paralysis overtakes the heart and lungs.

"Father Brown" has solved the mystery of the poisoning and offers the dying man confession. My question is, does confession absole one from their mortal sin of suicide the same way as if it were any other mortal sin? I'm not asking so I can copy this act but I wonder how absolution would work in that case where one has premeditated their own death and still can't stop the dominoes from falling meaning is there still absolution when ne commits a premeditated sin that can't be stopped?

We are instructed as fallible humans to not judge others but from what we know about the Father's vengance and forgiveness, how would one know which would be more consistant with what we know about God's will?

Apologies if this is a dumb question but I felt like I could learn something of the mind of God.

Not a dumb question. While we are still breathing there is always an opportunity for repentance. Even, I suppose, in the brief moment after jumping off a high bridge before hitting the water. That would require perfect contrition, which is theoretically possible in a few seconds.

In the Fr. Brown case I think repentance is possible. We can deliberately and freely choose grave evils, start the process of that grave evil, and then repent of it. If we could stop the evil we would have to try to do so. But if not we can still repent of it. The fearful question though is WOULD we repent of it? We could, but would we?

rturner76 · Sep 26, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
Not a dumb question. While we are still breathing there is always an opportunity for repentance. Even, I suppose, in the brief moment after jumping off a high bridge before hitting the water. That would require perfect contrition, which is theoretically possible in a few seconds.

In the Fr. Brown case I think repentance is possible. We can deliberately and freely choose grave evils, start the process of that grave evil, and then repent of it. If we could stop the evil we would have to try to do so. But if not we can still repent of it. The fearful question though is WOULD we repent of it? We could, but would we?

What made me wonder, is intention. Though I believe that we can repent as long as we have a voice to do so, the question I have been pondering has to do with intending to die slowly in order to have time for a final confession and how does making a plan to die and having time to repent, (and I wouldn't expect one to know the heart of another). In your opinion, how does that affect the sincerity of the request for absolution.

God DOES know the heart of a man and what his sincerity. He is also the final judge so I guess it's a bit blasphemous to even hint that the Father could be confused or "tricked" into forgiving someone who is repenting to avoid God's justice instead of because they are sorry and would take it back if they could. At the end of the day, I must admit that the matter is between a parishoner and God with a Priest as a mediary/advocate and it's nt really my business.

rturner76 · Sep 26, 2023

Bob Crowley said:
.Generally speaking people only commit suicide when they're mentally ill, or under some form of acute anguish. They don't do it in an emotional vacuum. I presume in the "Father Brown" episode you were watching, the bloke who had taken hemlock was under stress for some reason.

I think it's risky but God is the final judge.

God is the final judge and he doesn't make mistakes. I surely have heard about demon possion that ended in smeone throwing theirself out a window to their death. I don't know how people become posessed but I know God has infinite mercy

Bob Crowley said:
I can't help but think the devil put that family to the test (with God's permission eg. Job). With their Protestant "heaven or hell" outlook I suppose they may have thought he was "lost", but I don't think so. I think he might have gone to Purgatory. He certainly had "diminished responsibility" due to his mental illness, and according to one of his brothers when he was "down", he was "really down!"

I heard from a Bible reading that "God will not put on us more burden than we can bear." God also knows what state of mind we are in and what afflictions we carry. I'm sure that in cases of mental illness there is a dimished capacity but I'm not sure if God's perfect judgement includes that.

Bob Crowley said:
It's in God's hands in the end. He knows the full story - we don't.

That's one thing am am sure of. God knows the whole story.

rturner76 · Sep 26, 2023

Michie said:
I think absolution would work the same as it always would. I have read many regret the act of suicide while they are in the process of waiting to die. This would be the same except that there is nothing anyone could do about the poisoning. I imagine it would be the same as a person on their death bed. Confession, absolution, and last rites. Probably not much help to you but those are my thoughts.

It's actually reassuring to hear one of the faithful say basically "God would likely do what he's always done. Thank you. I think in asking this type of question I'm just looking for some reassurance.

Let me ask thi as a side question.......If someone lived as a drunkard, then had physical complications when they got older as a result of their chemical use.....Is that a form of suicide or simply not following Doctor's orders and passing away as a result, would on need to confess that?

chevyontheriver · Sep 26, 2023

rturner76 said:
What made me wonder, is intention. Though I believe that we can repent as long as we have a voice to do so, the question I have been pondering has to do with intending to die slowly in order to have time for a final confession and how does making a plan to die and having time to repent, (and I wouldn't expect one to know the heart of another). In your opinion, how does that affect the sincerity of the request for absolution.

God DOES know the heart of a man and what his sincerity. He is also the final judge so I guess it's a bit blasphemous to even hint that the Father could be confused or "tricked" into forgiving someone who is repenting to avoid God's justice instead of because they are sorry and would take it back if they could. At the end of the day, I must admit that the matter is between a parishoner and God with a Priest as a mediary/advocate and it's nt really my business.

I think that would be presumption, thinking you could sin and get away with it by repenting. I'm going to kill myself, but slowly, and then go to confession. I get away with murder that way. I think God sees through that one. The intention is still, to the end, to kill myself. No real conversion is involved, nor repentance.

Michie · Sep 26, 2023

rturner76 said:
It's actually reassuring to hear one of the faithful say basically "God would likely do what he's always done. Thank you. I think in asking this type of question I'm just looking for some reassurance.

Let me ask thi as a side question.......If someone lived as a drunkard, then had physical complications when they got older as a result of their chemical use.....Is that a form of suicide or simply not following Doctor's orders and passing away as a result, would on need to confess that?

I would think someone that struggles with addiction/vice is not really as much a form of suicide as it is an inability to function without it. One could say the same about smoking, food, etc. some people seem to have a predisposition for it. I assume there would be many that have spoke of it in the confessional as they go along their Christian journey. I’m not sure if a diabetic on their deathbed would need to confess that they did not follow dietary instructions as they should have as they are dying from kidney failure. I think that’s an issue where God see’s the heart. Some may feel the need to but some people may not. Addiction and vice is a very complicated and personal issue for each individual and there may be mental illness that has affected them as well. I think regardless of past, it’s true contrition that matters and we are to rely on the great mercy of our God. When someone is ending their journey here and cares enough to request a priest and ask for the mercy of God, that shows that they sorrowful about their mistakes and the consequences of their actions to show regret and ask forgiveness so they can move on to a better existence as God meant for them. But when it comes right down to it, these are things we cannot know. I suppose this is why we pray for those that have passed and we have the place called purgatory where God can finish His work so they can move into full communion with God.

chevyontheriver · Sep 26, 2023

Michie said:
I would think someone that struggles with addiction/vice is not really as much a form of suicide as it is an inability to function without it. One could say the same about smoking, food, etc. some people seem to have a predisposition for it. I assume there would be many that have spoke of it in the confessional as they go along their Christian journey. I’m not sure if a diabetic on their deathbed would need to confess that they did not follow dietary instructions as they should have as they are dying from kidney failure. I think that’s an issue where God see’s the heart. Some may feel the need to but some people may not. Addiction and vice is a very complicated and personal issue for each individual and there may be mental illness that has affected them as well. I think regardless of past, it’s true contrition that matters and we are to rely on the great mercy of our God. When someone is ending their journey here and cares enough to request a priest and ask for the mercy of God, that shows that they sorrowful about their mistakes and the consequences of their actions to show regret and ask forgiveness so they can move on to a better existence as God meant for them. But when it comes right down to it, these are things we cannot know. I suppose this is why we pray for those that have passed and we have the place called purgatory where God can finish His work so they can move into full communion with God.

I would have to confess every extra calorie I ever took in.

Michie · Sep 26, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
I would have to confess every extra calorie I ever took in.

Yes! I can see the priest pulling his hair out now. lol

Bob Crowley · Sep 26, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
I would have to confess every extra calorie I ever took in.

Big Mac - 4 Hail Mary's; Bucket of KFC - 2 Rosaries; Medium Fries - Our Father; Intention to do it all again tomorrow - unforgiveable sin, you'll have to go Protestant ...

Gnarwhal · Sep 27, 2023

rturner76 said:
"Father Brown" has solved the mystery of the poisoning and offers the dying man confession. My question is, does confession absole one from their mortal sin of suicide the same way as if it were any other mortal sin? I'm not asking so I can copy this act but I wonder how absolution would work in that case where one has premeditated their own death and still can't stop the dominoes from falling meaning is there still absolution when ne commits a premeditated sin that can't be stopped?

Interesting you ask that cause I've wondered that for a long time myself, but never wanted to ask for fear that people would jump to the conclusion that I myself was suicidal.

But I always figured the reason the Church historically said suicide was automatic damnation was because of the immediate finality of it. That there's no time for confession when one commits it. However, if someone poisoned themselves in such a way that their death was delayed but still inevitable, I wonder if confession would absolve them of the sin of their suicide?

I mean then you think about people who have unhealthy addictions that we all know slowly kill but consider them socially acceptable to some degree. Like smoking, heavy drinking or alcoholism, recreational drug use, maybe someone makes a habit out of reckless driving or getting in fights. All things that could cause their own death if done long enough or taken far enough. Are those considered suicide when the person was knowingly engaging in an act they knew would kill them eventually, and chose it in spite of that? It doesn't seem like the same thing as someone who willingly faces death as a sacrifice for others.

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