Hell's creation etc. A few questions.

intricatic · May 27, 2006

eoe said:
It is amazing how much of Orthodoxy simply "clicks". I encourage you to learn more.

I have been, and I've actually been encouraging some friends to look into Orthodoxy, and encourging the ones already interested in it to go further.

I dunno, I guess I just don't like being tied to any standard of theology, or to feel like I need to compromise my own personal views because it's popular. Yeah, I'm a stubborn post-teenager.

WickedServant · May 28, 2006

eoe said:
It is amazing how much of Orthodoxy simply "clicks". I encourage you to learn more.

True, true. Orthodox teachings are amazing, and well-founded. Not to take anything away from other denominations, though.

doc8645 · May 28, 2006

Bunnysfriend;
Well, to quench your curiosity (LOL) I don't particularily believe in the first lie ever told in the Bible by the serpent, Gen.3:4 "you will not surely die." And I see no evidence of an immortal soul, the only one I know that is immortal is God. Our "eternity" with God is the gift or reward He brings with Him at the resurrection. The wicked, well, Mal.4:1 & 4:3 "yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble," "for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet," I find no evidence of a soul that can't be destroyed but must be tortured for all eternity.

Wicked Servant;
I'm sorry but I'm not sure of what your saying, I get dense sometimes. The reference you quoted I believe is from Mt. 16:28 and I kinda think that was accomplished in Mt. chapter 17 at the mount of transfiguration, and Heaven and hell or the choice thereof being achievable, absolutely.

doc8645

visionary · May 28, 2006

Maybe you are looking at it from the wrong angle...

Maybe the Lord is preparing you to walk in the fire, and does not want you to get burned.

2 Kings 2:11
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Maybe fire is not suppose to burn you up but because of the wrong belief, fear has taken ahold of the mind, and it can not see past the fire to the truth.

Isaiah 43:2
When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze.

MAybe the version of hell land fire that has been promoted has been a great religious catch for centuries for those religious organisations that like to work on the fears of the people to gain adherents.

Isaiah 31:9
Their stronghold will fall because of terror; at sight of the battle standard their commanders will panic," declares the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, whose furnace is in Jerusalem.

So who can walk in the midst of the fire?

Isaiah 33:14
The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"

and the answer is.......and the answer is in the next verse

15 He who walks righteously
and speaks what is right,
who rejects gain from extortion
and keeps his hand from accepting bribes,
who stops his ears against plots of murder
and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil-

Valo · May 28, 2006

You know. I've read that link and I've thought about your answers. I just can't understand that all these different Christian groups have different ideals about Heaven and Hell and the Bible and yet all claim to Christians and all claim others are wrong. What a horrid God to delude so many people and cause so many arguments amoungst people who all worship the same thing. Surely God would make it clear? But he doesn't. So supposedly my questions have logical answers if you interpret the Bible differently? Or choose bits that support your answer, taking it out of context.

intricatic · May 28, 2006

Valo said:
You know. I've read that link and I've thought about your answers. I just can't understand that all these different Christian groups have different ideals about Heaven and Hell and the Bible and yet all claim to Christians and all claim others are wrong. What a horrid God to delude so many people and cause so many arguments amoungst people who all worship the same thing. Surely God would make it clear? But he doesn't. So supposedly my questions have logical answers if you interpret the Bible differently? Or choose bits that support your answer, taking it out of context.

No, you have logical answers if you look at the Bible and examine the issue through the entire context of the argument. To delude? Hardly. These differences can be very pleasant things between believers, provided that neither in the discussion is affected by some strange spiritual animosity. Afterall, we're discussing conceptual things through the nature of God, as interpreted through the Bible. In no way are we promised absolutely specific concepts in light of the spiritual nature of religion. Nor are we promised absolute agreement on all sides. That would disclude the very part of the discussion that is most human.
Even secular people can't always agree. That's part of having free-will, also.

Key · May 28, 2006

Valo said:
Hell is a place of torment and suffering
Well how could God create it when torment and suffering are products of sin, and God can't touch sin?

And yet, God Created the Earth and we do nothing more then poison it with Sin.... funny how that works don't you think?

So if God couldn't create it then who did?

Evil exists as a Negitive to Gods Good Justice, not as an enity of it's own.

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matthew 25:41).

Click to expand...

Prepared for them, not by them. So they couldn't have done it could they? SO therfore God created this place, with this evil within it meant for punishing people?

Everyone has to go some place.....

And Hell is a place devoid of God's presence, its evil etc, God can't touch evil. But yet he's supposedly

omnipresent so how could there be a place where he isn't?

Wow, you really are going deep here.. ever think... that it is because God chosese to not be there is why the Place is Hell?

Funny the answers we seek are always right in front of us and yet we never seem to be able to see the simplicity of it all...

God Bless
Key

WickedServant · May 30, 2006

doc8645 said:
Wicked Servant;
I'm sorry but I'm not sure of what your saying, I get dense sometimes. The reference you quoted I believe is from Mt. 16:28 and I kinda think that was accomplished in Mt. chapter 17 at the mount of transfiguration, and Heaven and hell or the choice thereof being achievable, absolutely.

doc8645

Actually, I was thinking of Luke 9:27, but they are pretty much identical. Difference being in Luke He says "...taste death until they see the kingdom of God"

We are all beings with souls.

Souls (or spirits, if you so desire) are eternal. They go on, good or bad. In reading the entire book, I think it is quite possible to see what God is warning us about. Every thought, word, or deed is for the better or the worse. And like it or not, God is going to help us either way; this is free will. Even if one choses to hate God, God will help him. I can sometimes see it so clearly when I stand still and think about it: what have I done today, and which way has it furthered me, away from or towards Godliness?

This is where the quote "Abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful goodness is" comes in; in our final state of transformation, how will the product of all our thoughts, words, and deeds react to God's inescapable Presence? Will we have to endure how awful goodness is as an eternal torture, when we have become hate? Or will we be in our element, having become beings of love that are nurtured by holy Presence?

May you be blessed.

Valo · May 31, 2006

Key said:
Wow, you really are going deep here.. ever think... that it is because God chosese to not be there is why the Place is Hell?

Actually that crossed my mind but the fact that God's omnipresent, oh wait, yeah, he's not in that bit....so then he wouldn't be all seeing all knowing if he's not in hell so therefore isn't all powerful.

Key · May 31, 2006

Valo said:
Actually that crossed my mind but the fact that God's omnipresent, oh wait, yeah, he's not in that bit....so then he wouldn't be all seeing all knowing if he's not in hell so therefore isn't all powerful.

Umm not to burt your bubble. But, Being all powerful means God can do as God wills. Hence, For example, maybe making a place, where those that have rejected him, can be out of his presence. You could call it a perk of being all powerful, is that once you are, all the other stuff is optional.

Typical, if no probelm exists, Try to make one up. Umm.. well same old.. same old arguments.

P.S. The "All Seeing" that's Oden's little cliam to fame, just a little FYI.

God Bless

Key.

HumbleUnderdog · Jun 1, 2006

So basically to some up a couple points here:
1)God's nature dictates that he can't be in touch with evil or sin in anyway se He is purely good and pure...yet.....
2)God is all-powerful, so powerful that he can do as He pleases.....such as go against His own nature and interact with evil and hell?.....yet......
3) God is omnipresent meaning that he is present in everything including heaven AND against His own so that he can be present in evil and hell? Is he also present in his unnature? (if that makes sense)

And the bottom line....which I have seen and read on this forum many times...how can a good God torment and send ppl or allow ppl to go to/through hell?

Yet I haven't seen/read/heard any reasonable answer to this simple question here. Could that tie in with the three sum-up questions that I just mentioned? Or does know one simply know the main answer right now?

This is still a question that seems to have gone unanswered, not just on this forum, but in the church itself, at least the churches i went to.

heron · Jun 1, 2006

What a horrid God to delude so many people and cause so many arguments amoungst people who all worship the same thing.

I see what you're saying... if we knew exactly where these places were, we would have already designed the heat-seeking missile for it, the star wars defense and the biodome to protect us when we get there.

.

heron · Jun 1, 2006

So basically to some up a couple points here:
1)God's nature dictates that he can't be in touch with evil or sin in anyway se He is purely good and pure...yet.....
2)God is all-powerful, so powerful that he can do as He pleases.....such as go against His own nature and interact with evil and hell?.....yet......
3) God is omnipresent meaning that he is present in everything including heaven and against His own so that he can be present in evil and hell? Is he also present in his unnature? (if that makes sense)

Some of these are doctrines created by extrapolating verses, so they mess up logic. Omniscient/omnipresent etc. are used to help us get a picture of God.

But here's a verse that implies God shifting His presence around:

De 32:20
And He said: "I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end will be.

And an area in Job 23:

Oh, that I knew where I might find Him,
That I might come to His seat!
I would present my case before Him,
And fill my mouth with arguments.
I would know the words which He would answer me,
And understand what He would say to me.

"Look, I go forward, but He is not there,
And backward, but I cannot perceive Him;
When He works on the left hand, I cannot behold Him;
When He turns to the right hand, I cannot see Him.
But He knows the way that I take;
When He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold.

The Grave

There was a great thread on this last year. In the ancient Hebrew view of death, people were buried with their forefathers, went to Sheol, and seemed to have a level of consciousness...possibly expectations for the future. You can see that in Job 14:13..

"Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, that You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!"

And also in Luke 16 -

Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried out and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

But Abraham said, `Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

`And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

.
Notice also where Jesus' values are placed in this passage...on helping the needy.

Hell's creation etc. A few questions.

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