Hell: the "power generator" for Heaven?

Blue Money said:

So why does God not just make these people non-existant instead of sending them to Hell?

Because God is just.

People must get punished for their crimes it is only right.

The punishment for sin is Hell.

Fortunately since God loves us so much he has sent his own son to die for the sins of mankind that whosoever believes in him and repents of their wicked ways may be excused from this punishment.

So since I have asked Jesus to pardon me of my sin and turned from my wicked ways, I am in the clear.

But many have not asked Jesus to do this and continue in their life of sin. Therefore their sins have not been pardoned and because they die in their sins they will go to Hell for their sins.

It's simply down to the fact that God is just.
*******************************
Is not being deprived of eternal life in Heaven "punishment" enough?
Or are you saying the Heaven you believe in "ain't that great?"
Seems to me that if the carrot is so good, what's the point of the
stick..?

Click to expand...

Eternal punishment is justice for a temporary crime?

And I know your response, "God's ways are above ours." (Yes, more loving, more kind, more compassionate.)

So justice + unfathomable compassion = eternal punishment for temporary crimes?

Maybe the English translations simply don't get it right? Wouldn't that make more sense than trying to say God has a gross sense of justice?

And history supports this presupposition. Every original Greek speaking theological school taught temporary punishment. Every single one. In other words, every original school that shared the same native language as the New Testament taught temporary punishment.

I think I'll take those who spoke the same language as the New Testament, especially since it doesn't require me to make God out to be monster in the name of 'justice.'

Ok great im a new kind of Christian (hell theres already thousands of denominations whats one more?) Atheistic Orthadox Christian .

I tend to worry about going to Hell during the times when I'm not living right (which is most of the time).

I'm not a Universalist, but I don't have a problem with those who are.

Never mind.

This:

Van said:

Hi Blue Money, thanks for the thought provoking opening post. First, let me say that Christians are divided on some issues, and part of the reason some of us do not think the Calvinist view of scripture is valid is your reaction to it. So lets back-up and talk about Christianity from a different biblical view.

Lets start with the doctrine of Omniscience, the idea that God is all-knowing. Two views of this doctrine are as follows: One, the Calvinist view, is that God knows everything imaginable, past, present and future. The other view, sometimes called inherent omniscience, is that God knows everything He has chosen to know. God can choose not to know somethings and to know other things. This view is consistent with the account of Abraham, where, rather than read Abraham like an open book, God instead tests Abraham to find out the strength of his faith in God. When Abraham raises the knife to slay his son, God says stop, "Now I know...." Before that test, God had chosen not to know what Abraham would do.

Words have meaning and if a doctrine makes a mockery of the meaning of the very words God inspired to reveal Himself, then the doctrine is unsound at best.

Next you correctly say, from the Calvinist view, that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass. The alternate view is God either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. And if God allows men to make choices that alter the future outcome of their life, that is something He allows, rather than something He deterministically causes.

This alternate view would say that you cannot surprise God, unless God allows Himself to be surprised.

Next you present the Calvinist view of Hell, where humans suffer torment consciously for eternity. The alternate view, called the Conditionalist view, is that when humans are tossed into the Lake of Fire, they are punished for their misdeeds which is just punishment. After that, they are destroyed and no longer have any awareness. This view defines "eternal punishment" as eternal separation from God, even though they cease to be aware of their punishment once justice has been satisfied.

Next, you talk about the possibility of sinning again in Heaven like the fallen angels did in the past. Lets talk a little about our range of choices. We can choose not to sin, but we cannot choose to be sinless because we are conceived in iniquity. We can flap our arms and try to fly, but no matter how hard we flap them, we do not achieve lift-off (unless equiped with additional apparatus.) So right now we are not free to do everything imaginable. We are not free to think about what does not occur to us. Before we are "born again" Christians can choose to be devoted to Christ, or not. Once a person is actually born again, then our faith in Christ is protected so we will inherit eternal life. God, according to scripture, has the power to limit our range of thought. Once we enter our "glorified bodies" our range of thought is further limited such that it does not occur to us to sin. So we can be at peace for eternity, never battling fleshly desires to go against God's opportunities for our enjoyment.

I know I have presented a radically different view of Biblical Christianity than the traditions of the middle ages, but I believe they are consistent with all scripture.

May God Bless

Click to expand...

is sound logic and truth. Read through it, think it over.

the one thing I see missing in this thread is GOD WOULD NOT HAVE ANY MAN PERISH BUT WANTS ("predestined," if you will) ALL MEN TO COME TO ETERNAL LIFE. Remember, hell was not made for man. "Behold, the goodness and severity of God."

I'm getting to this topic late. I hope that's ok.

Blue Money said:

why keep the sinners around, in a conscious state? Why not just annihilate them?

Click to expand...

There appears to be some confusion about sin and sinners. So let's get that out of the way first:

The bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory (Romans 3:23) and that means that every human is a sinner.

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." —Romans 5:8

What this means is that even though we're all sinners, God loved us anyway, and because of that love, He allowed his son to be the final sacrifice for our sins. What is required to be saved? Well Jesus filled the requirements of our Salvation, and what is left is for you to do this:

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Now as to why God would keep sinners around, there are two directions to take when answering that question. Before I do, I will say that I won't and don't speak for God. God is God, and I am not. He speaks for Himself. What I will say is that the first direction to take is the here and now, in this earthly existence, and the second direction would speak to what happens to sinners after this life, or after the 2nd coming of Christ. I'll get to the latter part of that, further on in this post. Now for the former part of it..the "here & now". All humans remain sinners, and will remain sinners, until their death & resurrection or the final judgement, when all sin will be judged, and either paid for by the blood of Christ for those who believed, or paid for by the sinner themselves. Being that we are incapable of paying for our own sins, the weight of the crime is going to be beyond our ability. The bible says that the wages of sin are death, and it also says that before we're saved by the blood of Christ, we are slaves to sin.

This means that those who reject Salvation through Christ remain slaves to sin.

For the Christian, God's word says this about our sin, after we accept Jesus.

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:20-23

After the final judgment, there are two beliefs about what happens to non-believers. Either they are cast into the lake of fire and they die forever, or they live for all eternity afterward, seperated from God for all time.

The bible gives a very good description of what will happen to those who reject God, and remember, it also tells us that the only way to God is through Jesus (I am the way, the truth & the life, no man cometh to the Father but by me. John 14:6). Let's take a look at the description:

"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." Isaiah 66:22-24

It doesn't say "the worm" like worms that eat the flesh, but it says "THEIR WORM" as in the being that exists within the body itself.

Again in the new testament we read about the worm that never dies, in hell.

"It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." from Mark chapter 9:47-48

Xyster said:

Sorry there is no hell.. either that or there is no Love.. I know there is love but have no proof of hell..So its safe to say there is NO HELL.....

COR 13 4. love never what?

Click to expand...

Yes there is hell, and there is hate too. Love exists. Hate exists. Heaven exists. Hell exists. Some who have never experienced hate, have difficulty believing in it's existence, but those who have felt hate, lived with hate, suffered with hate, they will tell you that it is very real. You haven't been to hell. It is my sincere hope that you will not be among those who are able to tell of it's realness. There are some now, who, if they could, would love to come back to this life, and tell you just how real it is. For you, who have not experienced it, Hell may seem like fantasy, but so does hate, to the infant that suckles on it's loving mother's breast.

Yes, there is a hell. There is a book called 20 minutes in Hell in the nonfiction section. This guy was really dead for 20 minutes.

Hell isn't a power generator-but a place of torment for those who by their free will rejected God their whole life. Would u let someone in your house if they rejected and ignored u thousands of times?

Blue Money said:

If Christianity is true, then those to be damned must have been destined to be damned from before the beginning of time (after all, God knows everthing down to the exact time your ten millonth hair falls out, and nothing happens that is not His will anyway. You can't surprise Him.)
The question I've always had is as follows: why keep the sinners around, in a conscious state? Why not just annihilate them? Yes, God should not have to allow sinners into his Heaven - but why preserve their existence then? After all, what use are they - to serve as an object lesson for those in Heaven? If so, then it will still be possible for man can have another "Fall" after the Divine Judgement. The possibility of sin will always be there. lurking like a tiger... and sooner or later (given eternity!) another angel will get proud and "here we go again" with the drama.
So, I see only ONE way that the "eternal torture in Hell" scenario can work. It is a yin-yang sort of deal in which ultimate happiness cannot exist without the complementary existence of eternal suffering. To "power" Heaven's happiness, an equal amount of misery has to exist. God therefore uses the torture of skeptics and heathens as fuel for the happiness of the saints.
Talk about TANSTAAFL ("there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.") Is this a credible theory, given that it makes God subject to an external principle? Any answers you have, give them please!

Click to expand...

There is no literal hell, in the sense that 'hell' is a place of eternal torment. Second, your idea about hell powering heaven is absurd and betrays a serious lack of understanding the concepts of heaven and hell in serious Christian theology.

Waitaminnit, who portrays a serious lack of understanding? Jesus spoke about hell in literal terms, quite a lot.

And the question of "hell powering heaven" is based on the notion that the only reason anybody would care about any of this is to escape torment, maybe if they weren't even sure. Pascal's wager, right? Not entirely unreasonable, but still incorrect in many ways.

Never mind.

Blue Money have you ever read any Dragonlance novels, specifically ones about Raistlin and Dalamar?

Hi Blue Money,

Fate

Why does God not just make these people non-existant instead of sending them to Hell?

Click to expand...

Yesterday I sinned. I entertained resentment. I was rude to others because it was hot out. At any moment any of us can make a choice to entertain sin or block out the temptation.

Imagine I put two innocent kids in a room (as you say)... which was more prone to sin? A bully might even made a surprising choice.

Put a Hostess HoHo in front of you, and decide whether you will eat it or not. Does God know the outcome? Can you psych Him out? Can you change the course of history?

We know from experience that we make choices all day long, that are not controlled by some preset destiny. As said above, some Christians believe in predestination and timeless omniscience, but the Bible shows choices and variables throughout. Pleas to repent and change. Examples of those who did not change after God and man hoped they would.

Variables
Compare how God's mind might be similar to a supercomputer. The computer stores and sorts variables, and can project outcomes very far into the future.

Our weather projections fairly reliably go out a week, but scientists try to project two weeks, a year, a decade. They use vectors to determine the possibilities. God knows vectors. If He created evaporation and density and wind, then He knows what can happen. Can happen with a reasonable range of variables.

How much bigger would God be than our most powerful computer? He is a better problem-solver than Chuck Norris. (A concept too outworn to enjoy.)

Look at probabilities in genetics. God designed the world with a fairly predictable set of variables, but also with unpredictable surprises. We can guess the general percentage, not the exact outcome... and mutations can also pop up. The wicked are prone to wickedness, but they can also exercise recessive tendencies to be decent and kind. Or just mutate into Changed Lives.


Wheat with Tares

Sustainability research shows that wheat grows better with tares. The New Testament says that the tares need to be kept. Joseph and Moses were driven out of their home, to immerse their lives with Pharaohs who believed they were sun gods. Daniel's miracles all took place after being kidnapped. In those situations, they had influence with leaders who appeared hopeless oppressors. The leaders softened and made more efforts to take care of their people.

When we hear the word "sin," we often assume it means sin against a set of mandates that God set up. But most of the policies God gave related to how we treat people. A person who stole from others needed to be stopped. A murderer needed accountability. If the community did not stop these people from continued offense, then the community would fall apart, and people would never find justice in their daily lives.

There is a simplicity in God saying that the wicked need punishment. He did not condemn the people who skip church, pick their noses, eat chocolate bars for lunch. It was the people who oppress other people without repentance, that did not fit into the terms of the agreement for salvation.


Eternal Flames

Flames can continue to burn, while organic objects are consumed and left as ash.

Izzy said:

Every original Greek speaking theological school taught temporary punishment.

Click to expand...

Raze said:

GOD WOULD NOT HAVE ANY MAN PERISH BUT WANTS ...ALL MEN TO COME TO ETERNAL LIFE.

Click to expand...

Chimes said:

there are two beliefs about what happens to non-believers. Either they are cast into the lake of fire and they die forever, or they live for all eternity afterward, seperated from God for all time.

Click to expand...

What does perish imply...

Do a search for the term "second death." Read the verses without any presuppositions, breaking down each word. These verses support the idea of end of the body, then end of the spirit. A few other verses support eternal punishment, but they might also be worded in a way that means an eternal sentence for guilt -- no chance of reprieve after a certain point.

Why would one want eternal heaven when they die, if they did not want heaven while on earth?


What is Hell

NewFoundFaith said:

There is no literal hell

Click to expand...

Years ago we called Pluto our ninth planet. Studying it more, scientists took that away from us. (Dern those astronomers that call it a dwarf.) Old estimates of the number of stars were continually replaced. We will never reach a point where we know everything that is beyond our tiny tiny scope, even if combining all human knowledge. It's a big universe out there.

Gehenna was often used in the NT as the word we call Hell. It was also a garbage heap where fires continually burned -- something people saw in everyday life. Incinerator. Things did not continue to live in it, but burned to ash.

Dust to dust, ashes to ashes.

Xyster said:

Im good with limited time... makes life..well .. MORE.... eternal life would make life WORTHLESS

Click to expand...

That is completely irrational. So if your were to get hit by a truck this very second it would make your current life even better?