David Lamb
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What are you saying - that giving honour is the same as blaspheming? Surely not.
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What are you saying - that giving honour is the same as blaspheming? Surely not.Honor to whom honor is due.
Not all Caesars were deified.2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
I'd suggest the same for His supposed inline genetic family tree, whoever it is
What are you saying - that giving honour is the same as blaspheming? Surely not.
Can you please show me a single place where I claimed that man is born immortal, I would never make such a silly statement in the first place. You have your presuppositions, based on your denominational bias. I'm not trying to promote any denominational doctrines, I'm only interested in the truth of the gospel.Sorry I wasn't able to define for you my understanding in a way that you can understand. I don't believe when all the Word's of God are considered, that men are born having already ate of the tree of life, and are immortal. I suppose if a man takes a verse here and there, and separates them from the rest of the Bible, that a case might be made that supports the religious belief that men are born immortal. And clearly you believe you are. But in my understanding, we both will die and stay that way until a power much greater than us, raises us from the dead.
"Feelings" are experienced by men that are alive. When we die, there are no more "feelings". The verses that the promoters of the religious philosophy use, to promote the doctrine that men are born immortal, have a different meaning, in my view, when more of God's Teaching on the subject of death and immortality are considered.
For instance, in the very beginning, another voice in the garden God placed Eve in, who professed to know God, tried to convince Eve that she too, was already created immortal. And He quoted some of God's Word in his attempt to deceive her. Remember, the Spirit of God was right there. This self proclaimed minister of righteousness, accurately quoted God, " And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And truly, if I went to the bible and looked, I would find the Words of God, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:"
So this preacher could create an entire philosophy centered around this verse, and if anyone disagreed with him, he could just say, " you refuse to deal with the scriptures I quoted". But that wouldn't be true would it. It's not that we refuse to consider that verse, as the adversary might accuse us, it's because we have already heard and believed "ALL" of God's Teaching concerning the Tree of Good and Evil and "because" we have considered Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God on the subject, we know that Eve would die if she ate of the tree.
So I have not "refused" to deal with the scriptures you separated from the rest of the Bible, to support your belief that men are born immortal. I simply understand that without considering and believing the rest of God's Words on the issue, I leave myself open to deception.
I hope you can understand "the reason why" I disagree with the popular religious philosophy of this world, that men are born immortal. Of course you are free to believe as you wish, and I thank you for sharing with me.
Yes, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Sodom, David, the wicked Kings of Israel, Shadrack, Peter Cornelius, James, John, my Mom and my Dad, they are all dead because they have all sinned. And they will stay dead until God's Raises them from the dead.
Now many of these folks died in "Hope" that God would raise them from the dead, "that they may have right to the tree of life, and "put forth their hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever".
But according to mainstream teaching, you were already born immortal. And they point to a few verses that are separated out from the rest of the Bible, including these here that I have posted.
This is why, in my view, Jesus said to Live By "EVERY Word" that proceeds from the mouth of God, on any given subject. When this is done concerning the Death that befalls all men because of Sin, is become clear that men ate not born with immortal souls/spirits etc. Immortality is a gift from God that we were not born with.
God didn't judge Abraham as a Sinner, but he was a man that sinned. And he died, and is still dead, and will remain dead, knowing nothing, feeling nothing, remembering nothing, until God raises Him from the dead. He died in Hope that God would raise him from the dead, and grant to him the promises God made to him.
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Well if these men were dead, then they were not immortal. If their "spirit/soul" was dead, then they didn't have an immortal spirit. Even this verse exposes the popular religious philosophy that men are born immortal, as a falsehood.
I don't think you are understanding the Christ's Spirit speaking through Paul here, rather, you are using this sentence to further a popular belief.
Jesus once said: "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
First, where did you find the Blood of Christ to drink? Or His Flesh to eat? And even if a man were able to find His physical Flesh, and ate it and became "immortal", why did he still die" Why does Jesus have to "Raise him up at the last day", before giving him immortality, if he isn't even dead yet?
All these Scriptures pertain to the topic of this thread. They are all speaking to life and death, the 2 choices God gives to all men. But only to men who are "Alive", when a man dies, there are no more choices, no more disobedience or obedience.
Go ahead an mock. Jesus said it would be like this for me. But Paul also taught the Body of Christ about returning to death.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin "unto death", or of obedience "unto righteousness"?
Once again, when all of God's Inspired Words are given on a topic, the understanding changes.
I get that you "have a zeal of God".
My only reason for posting on this topic, is to promote the consideration of "ALL" of God's Words on a topic. Not just a few verses promoted by someone who professes to know God.
Nothing proceeds from the heart of David or Pharoah now. Why is that? Because they are both dead and buried, just as God teaches. And evil thoughts, murders, wickedness, Love, Righteousness, faith, nothing comes from within the heart of a dead man, only the living, as it is written. And they will remain that way until Jesus Comes Back, raises them from the dead, and judges them according to their works they did "When they were alive".
David and Abraham died in HOPE that their names were written by God in the Book of Life. That God will come and raise them from the dead and allow them to eat of the Tree of Life and be granted immortality.
Pharoah believed he was already immortal, he had cats and dogs and riches buried with him to have in the "after life".
David and Abraham believed Every Word God gave for them to hear, while they were alive, although they were not perfect, and did sin.. Pharoah adopted the religious philosophies of this world God placed him in, also not perfect, and did sin, but rejecting much of God's Word while he was alive.
Spiritually speaking Pharoah walked the earth, dead in trespasses and sins. Spiritually speaking David and Abraham the earth "as those" alive from the dead". And yet both died and are buried to this day.
It seems important to understand the difference. in my view.
My answer would be decided by considering Every Word of God. But a dead person cannot repent. While a spiritually dead person can repent, and is instructed to repent. In fact, it is the spiritually dead person that needs to repent the most. And the spiritually dead person has this "mortal life", to repent and turn to God. Once he is actually dead, there is no repentance.
After you die, none of these 4 or 7 or however many deaths you are promoting exist. The living know they will die. The dead know nothing.
None of this proves the foundation of this world's philosophy that you are promoting, that all men are born having already, "put forth his hand, and took of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever". At least this is my understanding when ALL of God's Word on the subject is considered.
I thank you for your replies and hope the best.
By for now.
Can you please show me a single place where I claimed that man is born immortal, I would never make such a silly statement in the first place.
Dan1988 said:
"The Lord Jesus taught that eternal punishment in the lake of fire, awaits Satan and sinners alike. So what you said about people not being cast into the lake of fire to be tormented in fire for all eternity,, is not supported by the Bible. It's just your wishful thinking which is futile and doesn't change the fact that sinners will experience unimaginable torment in fire forever and ever with no hope of any ending."
Dan1988 said:
"Those who are cast into the lake of fire do not cease to exist, no they suffer Eternal Conscience Torment in Hell. So they are separated from "Life", to live is to be in Christ. Death is being separated from God for all eternity, so they experience dying an d death forever while they are fully conscience with all of their feelings intact."
There you go. Universal reconciliation was declared anathema in the Fifth Ecumenical Council.
“If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and impious men, let him be anathema.” Page 465 section IX.”
Our Lord taught no such thing, unless, of course, you are reading corrupt texts such as the KJV or the Douay-Rheims, which are not faithful to the original Greek. And have you even stopped to think of what kind of monster God you believe in who would knowingly create sentient beings for the sole purpose of torturing them forever????The Lord Jesus taught that eternal punishment in the lake of fire, awaits Satan and sinners alike. So what you said about people not being cast into the lake of fire to be tormented in fire for all eternity,, is not supported by the Bible. It's just your wishful thinking which is futile and doesn't change the fact that sinners will experience unimaginable torment in fire forever and ever with no hope of any ending.
I know the truth about hell is awful for those who have unbelieving friends and relatives. We don't like to think about their destiny, as it too horrible for words. I think it's best to let Jesus cast unbelievers into the lake of fire, because those of us who trust Him know that everything He does is good.
You claim the bible doesn't say that the lake of fire was prepared for people but the Bible proves you wrong. .
Matthew 25 Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Notice how the people on His left go to the same place as the devil and his angels?
Mark 9:48 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
Notice how the (flesh eating worm) never dies and the fire is never quenched.
Jude 7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
You claim that the second death is the end and they no longer exist, then later you say that everyone is eventually saved???.
The smoke of "their torment" to be precise. IF they were merely dead then there is no torment.
Nice try though. Do you really have a problem with the devil and his messengers being tortured forever and ever?
But they need to come to repentance.
“I have not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.””
Luke 5:32 NASB2020
Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now
I have not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.”bible.com
Sorry to hijack but can you confirm what version of the bible you read?Our Lord taught no such thing, unless, of course, you are reading corrupt texts such as the KJV or the Douay-Rheims, which are not faithful to the original Greek. And have you even stopped to think of what kind of monster God you believe in who would knowingly create sentient beings for the sole purpose of torturing them forever????
Let's talk about this some more, and I want an answer from you. Here is God, before anything is created. He knows everything that will ever happen before it even happens, which means that He knows that mankind will fall, sin and death will enter the world, and as a result, BILLIONS will suffer unimaginable torments with no relief at all. Yet, knowing this, and having NO NEED whatsoever to create anything (for He is ever complete and perfect in every way!) He goes ahead and does the Creation.
This means that foreknowing this, it is His express will that these BILLIONS be tortured forever.
Is this love? Is this the God who is love? What kind of God would do such a thing to His creation.
ANSWER THIS.
That is NOT what Matthew 25: 46 says. Once again, you are using corrupt texts not faithful to the Greek. The text says. ". . . into the age-lasting fire" and ". . . will go away into age-lasting correction (aionios kolasis)" If you are going to play theologian, then get at least a smattering of knowledge of the Greek that was the original text!!!
Some Universalists have stated that this refers to the throwing of the corpses of the dead who died in 70AD when Jerusalem was destroyed. Gehenna (NOT HELL!!!) was the garbage dump of Jerusalem outside the walls where dead animals and trash was burned, thereby giving an ongoing feast to both worms (maggots) and fire.
The Bible teaches that everyone -- ALL PEOPLE -- will receive the mercy of God. ALL PEOPLE!!
Does All Really Mean All?
As I continue to read arguments both pro and con regarding Patristic Universalism, I continue to find new discussions which bring up new arguments on the subject, both pro and con. One of th…http4281.com
And what you cited is the ramblings of one EO priest that believes in universalism. I read it but am not convinced. What is the official position of the EO church?This is from the bogus canons which were inserted illegally into the council by Emperor Justinian. He had NO BUSINESS doing this and was interfering for political reasons.
Here's more information on this, if you are so inclined to read. Unfortunately, those who have made up their minds are usually impervious to facts:
Did the Fifth Ecumenical Council Condemn Universal Salvation?
[This article has been extensively revised and republished under the title “Apokatastasis, Origenism, Fifth Ecumenical Council.” During the course of my revision, I discovered that the …afkimel.wordpress.com
This is not a biblical teaching.True. Some will come to repentance here and in this life, but the majority will come to repentance in the next life after they have been purged by the fires of God's love.
Sorry to hijack but can you confirm what version of the bible you read?
I read the bible to my husband and adult child and they have questions I can't answer e.g. if God created man, knowing he would fall, why did He create them to fall and then punish them for doing so?
I'm not sure how to go about answering questions and I have my own questions about versions of the word etc. so don't feel equipped to answer these questions without raising more doubt based on my own.
We currently read NIV, KJV, NKJV, ESV, Geneva.
Many thanks and God bless.
And what you cited is the ramblings of one EO priest that believes in universalism. I read it but am not convinced. What is the official position of the EO church?
Thanks for coming back so quickly! Do you read the 1862 or revised version later in the 1800s? I am not familiar with this version, so have done a quick search following your kind confirmation, so please forgive me if I have no idea what I'm talking about or coming across as ignorant as I am, up to now, not informed.I like to refer to Young's Literal Translation, which you can find at Blue Letter Bible online. It is much more accurate than the corrupted Western texts done by Latin translators with an agenda to fulfill.
Example: Matthew 24:3, the word "aion" is translated as "world" in the KJV and the Douay-Rheims when it means no such thing. The word means "age" and Jesus is speaking about the end of the age, not the end of the world. Because of this ROTTEN translation, the teaching of Premillennialism and the Rapture of the Church cropped up and took hold of Protestantism in the middle 19th century.
In the Douay-Rheims, there is this verse:
1 And in those days cometh John the Baptist preaching in the desert of Judea.
2 And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
NOT what it says in the Greek. The word there is "metanioia" which means to "repent" or to change one's mind. It doesn't mean what the RC church teaches regarding penance -- wearing hair shirts, beating yourself with a belt, etc.
DISHONESTY!!!
This is not a biblical teaching.
Thanks for coming back so quickly! Do you read the 1862 or revised version later in the 1800s? I am not familiar with this version, so have done a quick search following your kind confirmation, so please forgive me if I have no idea what I'm talking about or coming across as ignorant as I am, up to now, not informed.
I read most of it. You sure like to accuse others. I even googled others like it and am still not convinced. The scholarship questioning it is of recent origin.You didn't even read what the priest wrote, did you? Like all hellists, you don't care about investigation or facts, you just blow off what you don't like and smear the author.
I know the Bible just fine and I could just as easily tell you to stop listening to unorthodox lies.Of course it is a biblical teaching. You need to learn the Bible better. Stop listening to those people who are preaching lies.
Repentance after death:
Matthew 18:31 So when his fellow-servants saw what was done, they were exceeding sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord called him unto him, and saith to him, Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 shouldest not thou also have had mercy on thy fellow-servant, even as I had mercy on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due. 35 So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you, if ye forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.
God will keep the sinner in chastisement until the last amount due has been paid. This has to mean that for the majority of human beings, this will take place after death.
Now go to Revelation 21 and 22. Look at the timeline there. The sinners, the wicked and unrepentant are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Hellists like you claim that this is the end, that they will be there forever, but the verses and actions in Revelation 22 do not support this idea. Notice that the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and an invitation is given that all who thirst can drink:
Revelation 22: 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.
This invitation is extended those who are being purged in the Lake of Fire. I cannot in any way be for those who are redeemed, for they no longer thirst. They have the Living Water - the Holy Spirit - living within them, and their thirst for God is quenched. No, it is the sinner who longs for the drink of God's grace. This timeline destroys your idea that the Lake of Fire is eternal hell. And therefore, in order for these sinner to quench their thirst, they must A.) repent B.) turn to Christ and C.) have their thirst for Him quenched in His love.
I prefer to think of God as just and loving as He is described throughout scripture but God also said that He will save whom He wants. I see very little reason for Christ to go through such a horrendous death to justify those who believe then at the end all regardless of faith are also saved. The scriptures spend a lot space teaching that faith is required for salvation and that faith is now not later. Repent because the kingdom of Heaven is near. Why preach that if repentance can be later? Why preach that if repentance is possible after the kingdom of Heaven is here? As much as I would like to close my eyes and believe as you do this doctrine is not biblical.I find the ideas of an ever-torturing God to be disgusting and repulsive, especially in light of so many billions who have died having never even heard of Christ.
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