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ChavaK

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In the now defunct Hebrew National thread, hechshers
were discussed.
What level of hechshers do messianics rely on?
For instance, the Tri K was mentioned as not
being accepted by the frum community ( a fact
I re-verified with both of my rabbis- one Chabad
and one from an OU shul) today.
Do Messianics have hechshers they would not
rely on? How about a "K" on a box, if there
wasn't anything treif listed in the ingredients?
And how would you deal with a hechsher with a
DE on it?
Just curious
 
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GeratTzedek

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There isn't any particular certification that we value more than others.

I've only recently moved into this degree of observance of Kashrus. That I'm only buying things marked kosher is a big step up for me. The day may come when I'm pickier about WHICH cedrtification. But right now, that would be overwhelming.

Our Standards of Observance are not meant to be halakhic rulings, but do draw on halakhah. Our rabbis ask a "basic practice" of all Jews in MJ (not that it is always followed, lol) but also recommend a stricter extended practice. That said, here is a partial quote from the MJRC's website, Kashrut page. You will notice that the certificaiton issue is brought up regarding meat but not other products. Also even with meat, certification has not been made part of basic practice. THIS was controversial. There are rabbis on the council do not agree. Individual MJ's are of course free to go beyond this, to Orthodox standards. The Standards of Observance are supposed to begin introducing a minimal expectation in a community which until now hasn't had any -- the standards are NOT a statement of the ideal.
 
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ChazakEmunah

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I would also remind you that Chabad permitted the trachea ripping at Rubashkin. Rubashkin also gives Chabad millions of dollars. Works out nicely for both.
Hmm.... Sounds like another mitnagad baseless accusation to me.... Oh wait.... There's a term for that.. It's called motzi shemra....
 
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ChavaK

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Chava,
Do you know who HaRav HaGaon Moshe Feinstein Ztz'l was?

Of course, and if you are going where I think you
are going, it doesn't matter...
I hold by what my rabbis teach me, and yes they
are very aware of who he is too
 
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ChavaK

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I would also remind you that Chabad permitted the trachea ripping at Rubashkin. Rubashkin also gives Chabad millions of dollars. Works out nicely for both.

I am not here to slander fellow Jews; my rabbis tell
us not to use Triangle K because their plants are
not properly supervised. They are not saying it is
because Triangle K doesn't give enough kick backs.

Besides the thread is about what do Messianics
think of hechshers....I mentioned the Tri K because
in my experience no one uses it. What you choose
to use, you choose to use.
 
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ChavaK

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Thanks, Ger....I'll take a look after I have more time
after work....
 
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Talmidah

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Of course, and if you are going where I think you
are going, it doesn't matter...
I hold by what my rabbis teach me, and yes they
are very aware of who he is too

Agreed.
 
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TheRabbi

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Of course, you should do what your rabbis tell you. But when someone states that a hechsher is not reliable, they have left the realm of, "I'm just doing what my rabbi said". They are now issuing their own opinion to others and when they do so, they should be able to show what is unreliable about the hechsher.

If someone had said I don't eat trangle K because my Rabbi said not to, you would have never heard a ppep from me. But that's not what happened. A thread called "Warning" was created. And everyone seemed to want to jump to call Tri K unnacceptable. That's an incredibly serious accusation and you can't just say things that damage a God fearing Rabbi's reputation if you don't have sources and documented examples to bring.
 
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ChazakEmunah

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I have an example. The Frito Lay company was contacted and asked how often the Triangle K inspects their facility. The surprising answer: "Oh, we just fax them our ingredients list." {This is first-hand knowledge. No hearsay here.}
 
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Lulav

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Following the outline of what GerT posted ( and this is not across the board Messianic ruling, just the UMJC whom all Messianic congregations are not a part of. )

All pork products, shellfish, and food containing their elements (e.g., lard) are to be avoided. - Agree

I do not agree with their interpretation of Acts 10 however.

I do not eat Sturgeon or Swordfish

They mentioned vegetables, fruits canned, frozen, etc must have hechsher to get in my grocery cart. Vegetables ( including prepackaged salads), must be washed properly to avoid contamination by bugs, also fruit products, roll ups, sauces ( apple) must be examined for things like worms.

Grape products I look for hecksher and most times they are Kosher companies.

5.2 Gelatin, Cheese, Wine

Do not agree with Conservative practices, I do not eat any cheese with animal gelatin that is not certified from kosher fish. This includes all products that contain gelatin, cookies, pastries, candies, marshmallows, etc.

I only drink certified Kosher wine too, for all occasions, and other alcohol, must be certified.

5.3 Shechitah and Removal of Blood

Reliable hechsher only on meats, and fish, nothing with blood, I double Kasher livers. ( this is not to say I rely solely on a hechsher like in the case of Rubushkin, I won't buy from them any longer.) I am currently looking into Solomons meats.

I do not eat things such as 'turkey bacon' etc, as these still could be contaminated with blood, fat , etc. I do eat some sausages from a kosher butcher.

5.3.3 While the purchase of meat slaughtered and butchered under reliable kosher supervision is highly recommended, given the difficulty in many places of obtaining kosher meat our basic practice will not involve eating only such meat. It will involve urging that we avoid meat from the hindquarters of permitted four-legged animals (a practice rooted in Jacob's injury in Genesis 32).

I don't agree with this, there are many other ways of getting protein, if you can't afford the meat or it isn't available locally ( but many can be shipped) then other sources, beans, grains, and fish make an adequate diet.


Some Hechshers I look for and use mainly are OU ( with some exceptions) star K, Qof K, Tablet K , half moon K ( these are on cereal products mostly).
 
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TheRabbi

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I have an example. The Frito Lay company was contacted and asked how often the Triangle K inspects their facility. The surprising answer: "Oh, we just fax them our ingredients list." {This is first-hand knowledge. No hearsay here.}

Who said they have to be inspected at all? Ask your Rabbi if it's okay to drink Jack Daniels or Glenfiddich. Do they have inspection? They don't have any hashgacha at all! We know what's in it and we know how it's made. And just about everybody says it's okay. It is a fundamental misunderstanding of halacha to assume that everything needs inspection.

I've got news for you. A couple of generations ago, everybody was reading labels. Hechsherim are a wonderful help, but they are not a necessity, nor are they halachically mandated.

You think triangle K is maikel? I used to work at a company that had Badatz Eidah Chareidis and OU hechsherim. The Badatz guys were certified to sign for the OU hechsher as well as their own. They showed up about once every three months. There were six of them (Belzer Chassidim). They stood outside, smoked cigarettes, drank up all of our sodas and took over our minyan. Then they got back in their van and left. In over 3 years of observing these guys, I never once saw them ask to inspect anything. The truth is, they really didn't need to. If you think you've got a Rabbi looking over the goy's shoulder because of an OU, you don't understand the way things work.
 
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Lulav

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However we shouldn't throw all caution to the wind. I remember thinking things like 100% Pure Maple syrup were A-OK to eat without worrying about certification, I mean , it's 100% sugar boiled down from a tree, what could be wrong with that?

Then I found out that traditionally in the last 100 years or so in the maple sugaring process, they used pig lard to grease the troughs that the syrup flowed down to keep it from sticking.

Now I make sure my 100% Pure Maple Syrup is just that!
 
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ChavaK

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Exactly...it isn't just about the ingredients. It's the
equipment, manufacturing processes, and ingredients
that are not listed (or that are not made clear)
that are also issues....
 
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Lulav

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No, it's definitely about cross contamination. I understand that more than most here, as I have CD and even if the ingredients are kosher, and do not contain wheat rye, spelt , etc, if this product was even made from rice that was processed in a plant that processed wheat, or even it was made on equipment that may have processed something else, or even they may have used flour from wheat as a release agent, but not part of the product itself, I get sick.

I sure know what Paul meant by a little leaven leavenith the whole lump. One 1000th of something not permissible for me can really make me sick and eventually can kill me.
 
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