Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Well, when I read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-11 I don't see gentiles mentioned, I see the House of Judah (Jews) and the House of Israel (whom I believe is you). The word gentile is not listed there, in fact... Paul said we WERE gentiles and WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel but ARE NOW fellow citizens. (Eph. 2).

The word gentile as used when the first English bibles were printed, meant "a pagan, a heathen, somebody who is not a Jew nor Christian." (Source - Webster's 1828 edition) The definition of that word has changed even though we continued using it as a translation of ethnos (Gr) and goyim (heb). Those two words are dealing with nations OUTSIDE of Israel and you will not find either of those two words associated with "new covenant" anywhere in the bible. It is a modern teaching using the modern definition of gentiles with no biblical support at all. The covenant is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel (and their companions) and that's it.

Gentile Abraham got the promise, and it says all nations in Gen 12:3, Peter in Acts 3 talks about all nations too, while talking About Abraham. just about everywhere Paul used Abraham, he was warding off Judaism, law, circumcision, the old cov, pride, nationalism, etc.

Abraham, the father of us all, is in Hebrews 2:16, and chapter 6. Gentiles are in the new cov.

Paul was a new cov minister, the Corinthians were partaking of the New cov in 1 Cor 11, and that church was mostly gentile.

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Well, when I read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-11 I don't see gentiles mentioned, I see the House of Judah (Jews) and the House of Israel (whom I believe is you). The word gentile is not listed there, in fact... Paul said we WERE gentiles and WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel but ARE NOW fellow citizens. (Eph. 2).

The word gentile as used when the first English bibles were printed, meant "a pagan, a heathen, somebody who is not a Jew nor Christian." (Source - Webster's 1828 edition) The definition of that word has changed even though we continued using it as a translation of ethnos (Gr) and goyim (heb). Those two words are dealing with nations OUTSIDE of Israel and you will not find either of those two words associated with "new covenant" anywhere in the bible. It is a modern teaching using the modern definition of gentiles with no biblical support at all. The covenant is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel (and their companions) and that's it.

If Gentiles are not mentioned as new cov people, then why do you say we have the law written on Gentile hearts? Which way ya going here?

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Yes.... that is why Paul called it "arrhabōn," (G728) an earnest, a down payment (again, 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5 - please go look them up). The text plainly states that I will make a covenant, I will write the law on the mind and heart, and it will happen WHEN?

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

But since we still need to teach, and not all know the Lord... then it hasn't happened yet. Cute emoticon but if we still need to teach and not all know the Lord, then only your desire to maintain your current beliefs can trump the text. You're welcome to that, I mean it... but don't waste your time trying to change my mind. I don't mind being wrong... but I am not on this. The verse is pasted above... not all know the Lord, we still need to teach, that clearly means it isn't fully in place, YET. That is work Yeshua will do when he returns. It is part of the perfection process...

No reason to get snarky.... I am just sharing some thoughts. If you don't agree, so be it.

The down payment id not about the law, it is about the glorification...

Eph 2:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Well, when I read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-11 I don't see gentiles mentioned, I see the House of Judah (Jews) and the House of Israel (whom I believe is you). The word gentile is not listed there, in fact... Paul said we WERE gentiles and WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel but ARE NOW fellow citizens. (Eph. 2).

The word gentile as used when the first English bibles were printed, meant "a pagan, a heathen, somebody who is not a Jew nor Christian." (Source - Webster's 1828 edition) The definition of that word has changed even though we continued using it as a translation of ethnos (Gr) and goyim (heb). Those two words are dealing with nations OUTSIDE of Israel and you will not find either of those two words associated with "new covenant" anywhere in the bible. It is a modern teaching using the modern definition of gentiles with no biblical support at all. The covenant is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel (and their companions) and that's it.

So gentiles are not allowed behind the curtain?

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers,c]">[c] since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

gentiles can't go to the throne of grace?

heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need

actually when the old cov is promoted, it grieves grace!

heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Israel was scattered into the nations, among gentiles. This is first prophesied in Deut. 30:1-6 but we see it throughout, try all of Hosea 1. Anyway... Yeshua said, and these are HIS WORDS so take this up with him and don't argue with me... "I have NOT BEEN SENT BUT to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." The House of Israel, the ones sent into the nations as prophesied who were ALSO prophesied to be called back. So, they were gentiles "in the flesh" and Paul said you WERE GENTILES, you are NOT NOW gentiles, you WERE GENTILES, WERE ALIENS of the commonwealth of Israel but ARE NOW fellowcitizens.

The strangers who came out of Egypt with Israel, attaching themselves to the God of Israel were to be treated as "native born" God said. He also gave the Torah to Israel "and the stranger with them." And lastly, they were to "assimilate into the tribes they traveled with." They became grafted in... no longer strangers, no longer aliens, no longer gentiles.... they were as much "Israel" as the native born. And such is the case with you. Paul saying you WERE a gentile means you are NOT ONE NOW.

Sorry, I didn't make your point.

then there are no Jews now.

gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg]">[g] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,e]">[e] free; but Christ is all, and in all.

ToBeLoved · Jun 4, 2015

Frogster said:
Here are law facts, no paradigm needed.

Paul and others.

Peter said the law was a yoke, he nor the fathers could bear, Acts 15:10, and it would test God to add it to the church.

James said not to burden with the law either in Acts 15.

Jesus in revelation 2:24 said he does not lay any other burden, same words as James in Acts 15.

It was dung life in Phil 3.

The power of sin is the law 1 Cor 15:56.

The law was temporary Gal 3:19.

The law was for children Gal 4:3.

The law works wrath Rom 4:15.

Sinful passions were aroused under law Rom 7:5.

The law is not the gospel Gal 3:9-10.

Life under law is cursed Gal 3:10 and 3:13.

The law is not of promise Gal 3:18 and Rom 4:14.

They received the Spirit not by law Gal 3:2.

They did not have miracles by law Gal 3:5.

The law does not justify Rom 3:20.

The law did not give life Gal 3:21.

The law did not sanctify Gal 3:3,

The law was added to increase the trespass, not take it away, Rom5:20.

Sin has dominion under law Rom 6:14.

Law life was bondage Gal 2:4, Gal 4:3, Gal 4:25, Gal 5:1.

To be severed from Christ, was to be under law, imagine that! Gal 5:4.

The law was called a strict pedagogue (tutor) of Gal 3:24, a strict disciplinarian, not very flattering, which fits into the context of the prison warden words of 3:24. The pedagogues beat the children with rods in Paul’s day.

The law was elemental Gal 4:3.

The law was a system of slavery, Gal 4.

Paul called the law bondage about 4 times in Galatians.

The law was called a prison that held in sin Gal 3:22-23.

The law is not grace Rom 11:6.

We are not heirs by law Rom 4:16.

The law is not of faith Gal 3:12.

The law is not the cross Gal 5:11 and Gal 3:1.

The law was abolished Eph 2:15.

The law was nailed to the cross Col 2:14,

The law caused division between Gentile and Jew in Eph 2:14-15.

The law caused enmity with God and man, Eph 2:16-18.

We are not sons by law Gal 4:6, the law was a ministry of death and condemnation 2 Cor 3:7-9.

The law could not cleanse guilt Heb 9:14 and 10:4,

To revert to the old cov was to spurn the Spirit of grace and the blood of the Cov, it was sin Heb 10:26-29.

Christ is the end of the law Rom 10:4.

There was a time when there was no law Rom 5:13.

It was a ministry of death and condemnation, 2 Corinthians 3.

We are not under law, Gal 5:18, Romans 6:14.

The old cov was abolished, Heb 8:13, 10:9.

Weak and useless.

Hebrews 7:18-19 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul said he wasted his time on them, if they got under Sabbath, the law, the Jewish calendar, and the basically same thing in Colossians 2:16.

Whew!

Amazing!

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Israel was scattered into the nations, among gentiles. This is first prophesied in Deut. 30:1-6 but we see it throughout, try all of Hosea 1. Anyway... Yeshua said, and these are HIS WORDS so take this up with him and don't argue with me... "I have NOT BEEN SENT BUT to the lost sheep of the House of Israel." The House of Israel, the ones sent into the nations as prophesied who were ALSO prophesied to be called back. So, they were gentiles "in the flesh" and Paul said you WERE GENTILES, you are NOT NOW gentiles, you WERE GENTILES, WERE ALIENS of the commonwealth of Israel but ARE NOW fellowcitizens.

The strangers who came out of Egypt with Israel, attaching themselves to the God of Israel were to be treated as "native born" God said. He also gave the Torah to Israel "and the stranger with them." And lastly, they were to "assimilate into the tribes they traveled with." They became grafted in... no longer strangers, no longer aliens, no longer gentiles.... they were as much "Israel" as the native born. And such is the case with you. Paul saying you WERE a gentile means you are NOT ONE NOW.

Sorry, I didn't make your point.

Jesus was about gentiles too...they listened!

John 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Taken from Jews, given to gentiles.

Matt 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

Gentiles here too...

Matt 12:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah:
18 “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen,
my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased.
I will put my Spirit upon him,
and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
19 He will not quarrel or cry aloud,
nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets;
20 a bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not quench,
until he brings justice to victory;
21 and in his name the Gentiles will hope.”

More about us faith filled gentiles from the Lord! look who was thrown out, NOT the Gentiles,,

The Faith of a Centurion
5 When he had entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, 6 “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant,c]">[c] ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israeld have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Amazing!

Thank you!

MoreCoffee · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
What is interesting, and you truly are welcome to believe whatever, but what is interesting is the lack of willingness to see outside of our own paradigms. The verse about the priesthood being changed for example... I believed that. Then I began to study Greek and low and behold I find that the word translated as "changed" means "transferred."

The words in question are μετατιθεμένης and μετάθεσις The first being about change and the second about transposition and removal. It isn't about the weight of anything. It is about the removal by transposition from earth to heaven of the priesthood and the laws associated with it. It is in keeping with the comparison, sustained throughout much of Hebrews, between the earthly tabernacle and the heavenly one. The transference is of the atoning sacrifice offered to God from an annual ritual in the earthly tabernacle to a once for all time sacrifice offered to God in the heavenly tabernacle. And the change is of the priesthood from one born in Aaron's line to one born of the Tribe of Judah and made a priest in the line of Melchizedek.

There's no need for the flimflam, that follows in your post, about shifting weights and everlasting priesthood for the Levites.

It is speaking about the weight being shifted from one to the other. Why is that important? Because the Levitical priesthood was also called everlasting. If it no longer exists then either God couldn't see the future, changed His mind, or lied. And if He changed His mind, what makes us think He wouldn't change it about who the door to salvation is? That is the can of worms we open up with these types of conclusions.

Yes indeed, better promises... no longer Torah on stone, but rather... God's instructions written inside us, as if DNA, part of the perfection process bringing us to a place where we can't sin ever again. That is what is better.

We make the Law sound broken, faulty, or evil.... but God is the author and God is perfect. He can't produce fault!

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
You were gentiles in the flesh but you are not now. You were an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel, but you are now a fellow citizen. That is what Paul shared in Ephesians 2.

Messiah's comments about not being sent BUT to the lost sheep means he went to the lost sheep. When he commissioned the 12 he said, DON'T go to the pagans (gentiles) but rather go to the lost sheep of Israel. His mission, he said, was to them... and the mission of the 12 was to them.

Peace to you.
Ken

you forget it went beyond israel.

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
You were gentiles in the flesh but you are not now. You were an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel, but you are now a fellow citizen. That is what Paul shared in Ephesians 2.

Messiah's comments about not being sent BUT to the lost sheep means he went to the lost sheep. When he commissioned the 12 he said, DON'T go to the pagans (gentiles) but rather go to the lost sheep of Israel. His mission, he said, was to them... and the mission of the 12 was to them.

Peace to you.
Ken

you forget about the woman at the well, she was not a full Jew.

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

Netzari777 said:
Paul's first missionary journey was not until 10+ years after the resurrection. Until then, virtually all the believers in the Messiah were Hebrews. When the 3,000 were added on Pentecost they were all Hebrews on the annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Because they had been scattered to different parts of the known world, they adopted the local languages.

Pentecost, or more accurately, shavu'ot, is celebrated as the day Moses came down Mt Sinai with the Torah.
It is a required pilgrimage. Deuteronomy 16:16

Pentecost actually was the end of the law era, the Spirit came, after the law.

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Same here..

Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

Netzari777 said:
So, it was, for all intents and purposes, a sect of Judaism.

It was the sect that said "the Pharisees have added to the Torah, and we will no longer be bound by their rules."

If the sect were so Jewish, why was it persecuted by Jews?

MoreCoffee · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
The word for law is nomos, the word for ordinances in that verse is dogma... which speaks of verdict of guilt written against us, but not the law itself. If the law itself was nailed to the cross, then it would say "Blotting out the handwriting's of nomos," but it does not. "Do not steal" or "Do not lay with a man as you would a woman" was not nailed to the cross, our guilt was!

The words for "the handwriting of ordinances" are χειρόγραφον τοῖς δόγμασιν which do not speak of a verdict of guilty at all. They refer to the basis for the charges and the case brought against those who failed to keep the ordinances (decrees) in the law. The passage is well translated in the KJV and in the Vulgate (chirografum decretis). The meaning is explained in one of my earlier posts.

MoreCoffee said:
blotting out] cancelled (Lightfoot).—The act of “forgiving” is described under vivid imagery. Cp. Acts 3:19; and see Psalm 51:1; Psalm 51:9; Psalm 109:14; Neh 4:5; Isa 44:22; Jer 18:23.

the handwriting] The bond, note-of-hand. The original word, cheirographon, meaning an autograph, is used often in this sense, and oftener (transliterated) in Latin than in Greek. So here the Latin Versions have chirographum decreti.—What is “the bond”? The question is best answered under the next words.

of ordinances] Lit., “with relation to ordinances”; based on them, conditioned by them. “The bond written in ordinances”; Revised Version (of 1881) — These “ordinances” (dogmata) are not rites but, as the Greek word always means in the N.T., orders, decrees. The reference cannot be solely to the “decrees” of the Jewish Law, for here the case of all believing sinners is in view. The decrees are rather that of which that Law was only one grand instance, the Divine precept of holiness, however conveyed, whether by revelation or by conscience (see Romans 2:12-15). Man’s assent, however imperfect, to the rightness of that precept, is as it were his signature of obligation to “the bond”; a bond which his sin has made to be a terribly adverse engagement.

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
That is different from what Paul says in Romans and Hebrews. Don't just read snippets read the whole thing together. Then only thing Paul refers to as new, over and over and over again, is there is a New High Priest. We are free from the law of sin and death. We are not free from the law that says "do not murder", we are not free from the law that says "do not lie", etc.. We are not saved by keeping the law but Yeshua DID say "IF you love Me you WILL keep my commandments".

Paul was a new cov minister, 2 Cor 3.

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
They're the same laws, they are just transferred from stone to heart.

if that were so, the council of jerusalem in Acts 15, would have to had to bound the church to the full law, but it did not.

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Acts 21:20 in English says, "Many thousands of Jews believed and remained zealous for the Torah." However, "many thousands" is the word Murias, it is the word for 10,000 and it is in PLURAL form... which means a minimum of 20,000. The population of Jerusalem at that time was around 80,000 and 25% believed Yeshua was messiah AND remained keeping the Torah. The common dispensational teaching is that the Jews rejected him... some did, not all, by FAR. So in the first century the faith was Jewish, it believed on him AND kept the Torah. That answer a Revelation verse that for some seems out of place. It says, "They have the testimony of Yeshua AND keep the commandments." Just like the Jews in the first century.

Yet, the gentiles became the majority, and look at the future too...after the tribes, it says.....

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

A Great Multitude from Every Nation
9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

MoreCoffee · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
No, most that I know, including myself, felt drawn to the Torah and to Israel before hearing about Armstrong. I just tend to believe we are seeing an awakening, Acts 3:21 perhaps... Ezekiel 37... or we're nuts. We'll find out when messiah comes!

Messiah has come already and will come again. Perhaps your post meant to speak of the coming again promised in holy scripture? (John 14:3)

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

eyupmiduk said:
I guess Paul wasn't actually so sold on the Gentile mindset. As he said on Ephesians 4:17-19 (NIV UK)

"So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more."

I would say that there is a definite difference between the Greek/Gentile mindset and the Hebraic. The Jews' whole culture was focussed on the things of God, even of they did distort it. The Gentile Christians had to learn a relationship with God from scratch so Paul had to guide them into it. The Jews had to learn their new standing with God but it was far less removed from their cultural background, but they would have had to unlearn a lot. It's like Jew and Gentile meet join the middle, and both have to move from where they are.

But Paul said WE, so the Jews were in the same boat.

Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Same in Acts 26, Jews were bound by the devil too.

17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Frogster · Jun 4, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
That is correct, however, those TWO encompassed all the others. Dividing the 10 commandments in half one half is in relation to God and the other is in relation to your neighbor. If we love God, we will do all the things that He has asked us to toward Him. If we love our neighbor we will do all the things toward our neighbor that God has asked us to. IOW if we love God, we will keep the Sabbath, we will have no other Gods before Him, etc.. If we love our neighbor we will not murder, we will not dishonor our parents, etc.. Eight commandments do not just disappear just because Yeshua bundled them down to two.

John said 2 also...just 2, not 613.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us

Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

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